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Retirement of Clones
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| Eli_Fitzgerald | Date: Wednesday, 08 Jun 2011, 6:37 PM | Message # 1 |
 Major general
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| I don't have a proposal here, but I read (in the news) that the Senate is expected to come up with a retirement plan for the clone forces that the Empire is phasing out. I don't have a proposal, as I said, but I do have some thoughts; namely, the sacrifices that the clones have made for us throughout the Clone Wars and to this day should be honored with a generous retirement plan that respects them as humans and 1.) provides for them, 2.) patriates them (that is, helps to include them into society on a planet of their choosing), and 3.) gives them the right to vote—they've taken orders for a long time (without question, notoriously), and now I think it's time we listened to them.
I think a good place to start the conversation might be where we patriate the clones. And the cost, of course. It seems to me, considering what these clones have done for defense, we should be able to provide for them with existing defense funds rather than having to commit new funds for the purpose.
Eli Fitzgerald
Senator of Ralltiir (10 BBY—Present)
"I was elected to do some flamethrowing in the Senate. To a light a fire under those Senators and make it hot for them."
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| Senator_Cambrist | Date: Wednesday, 08 Jun 2011, 6:58 PM | Message # 2 |
 Lieutenant general
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| The Senator from Ralltiir may be the newest member of this body, but we've learned already that he isn't the smartest—his "thoughts" on this subject continue to demonstrate this. Has the Senator given any consideration at all to the impact that a large population of genetically-identical people will have on the criminal justice system? Has he considered at all the well known phenomenon of "clone madness"? Has he thought at all about the wisdom of giving the right to vote to individuals who are programmed to follow orders? The Senator's assumptions are all wrong, too. The clones were manufactured for a purpose, and that purpose wasn't to retire comfortably at significant cost to the Empire—a cost that you propose, outrageously, should come from the defense budget.
I agree this is a conversation that needs to be had, but let's have it without pretensions and platitudes, please.
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| Ilanah_Thanatos | Date: Tuesday, 14 Jun 2011, 4:10 PM | Message # 3 |
 Colonel general
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| Senator Fitzgerald, I applaud you for being such a humanist. It is very noble of you to champion for a cause such as this. What ideas do you have for funding? I am merely curious as to your thoughts and would be more than willing to help.
Ilanah R. Thanatos
Senator of Chandrila
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| Exar_Ray | Date: Saturday, 18 Jun 2011, 7:24 PM | Message # 4 |
 Major general
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| Well before we start discussing retirement of any clones, let us be reminded of why they exist. They exist to fight wars for us and unless trained otherwise, will continue to fight. If anything, we must start to introduce these clones to a normal way of life instead of picking up a weapon and using it to kill. We have to have an agenda in place that would either put clones into classes of integration of life or practical exercises that would show them that this will be their way of life... no longer forced to live in armor or their homes being multiple battlefields.
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| Titus_Veritas | Date: Saturday, 18 Jun 2011, 9:28 PM | Message # 5 |
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| The current policy for retiring clones is to move non-combat capable Clones into training, and other support, roles at cloning centers, until they are unable to act in such manner, in which case they die comfortably, still aiding in the training process from their invaluable field experience. This has been the case for years, and will remain so until the Throne declares otherwise, or the Senate brings about comprehensive legislation to change this stance.
I see no better action, and those that are spoken of, are a minefield of moral conflict. The Senate is not expected to come up with any "retirement plan" as one is already in place. I should note that some remarks in this article were taken out of context, and I should also note that clones are not being entirely retired, merely, birth-born recruits are being allowed into the Clone-exclusive Stormtrooper Corps in the next calendar year, following the exceptional performance of several test candidates. I feel that that clarification is necessary in this time of assumption and false statement.
Viceroy Titus Veritas, House Veritas
Consul of the House of Lords
Former Senator of Deralia and the Tammuz Sector (50 BBY - 30 BBY, 18 BBY - 10 BBY)
Former Chairman of the Imperial Senate Defense Committee (18 BBY - 10 BBY)
Message edited by TitusVeritas - Saturday, 18 Jun 2011, 9:31 PM |
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| Senator_Cambrist | Date: Saturday, 18 Jun 2011, 11:19 PM | Message # 6 |
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Lieutenant general
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| "This has been the case for years," yes, but surely it isn't sustainable, Senator Veritas. Because of growth acceleration, the first generation of clones that were engineered for the Republic Army, while only 20 years old today, are now nearing a biological age of 60. I remind you, Senator, there are millions of these clones, and not all of them can be made "consultants" to assist in training the latest troops. Even if they could, sooner or later (sooner, I should think) the cost of health care—to say nothing of "clone madness"—will become a serious problem. This is what the Grand Vizier meant (if I my presume to say so) when he "[called] upon the Imperial Senate to come up with a retirement plan." Not to retire all clones, but to retire the clones that are too old to be of any use to the Empire.
It is a moral issue, as you've said. I would like to remind all of us, however, that the clones were created to fight and die for the Empire. They are professionals, and I'm sure they understand the implications of this. I will be blunt, Senators—any discussion of "retiring" these millions of clones, too old to fight and die in combat, must permit them the option of ending their own lives and provide them with the means to do so in a peaceful and dignified manner. Zemex, perhaps. I see no alternative that doesn't reduce them to senile janitors for the remainder of their sad, decrepit lives.
Message edited by Senator_Cambrist - Saturday, 18 Jun 2011, 11:21 PM |
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| Eli_Fitzgerald | Date: Monday, 20 Jun 2011, 10:53 AM | Message # 7 |
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Major general
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| So your plan says to the clones "Thanks for your decades of service, now it'd be good if you went about dying, just saying"? Yes, there are moral challenges here. Yes, clone madness is a problem. I didn't say I have all the answers, but I would point out it's easier to tear down people's ideas than it is to suggest ideas, but that's what I'm doing here. And I don't think my assumption―that the clones should finally be treated not simply as means, but as ends in themselves―is wrong. These are human beings we're talking about, and I won't ask them to die just so we don't have to pay the medical bills.
As for this business about a genetically-identical population, it can be done. Khomm is a society of clones and it works fine. There are ways to distinguish clones from each other, after all. I assume the Empire's clones have serial numbers, or something along these lines. The point is, yes it's a challenge, but the clones have never been daunted by challenges and I think they deserve and demand that we follow their example and come up with a retirement plan that treats them with respect. I think they're entitled to a vote, that's my opinion. I also agree with Senator Ray that the clones should be re-trained as necessary to help patriate them to a planet or planets they can call home.
As for funding, Senator Thanatos, I'm not really particular. I think the defense budget is massive enough to be able to accommodate this, but either way, the money can and should be found.
Eli Fitzgerald
Senator of Ralltiir (10 BBY—Present)
"I was elected to do some flamethrowing in the Senate. To a light a fire under those Senators and make it hot for them."
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| Slai-Fon | Date: Wednesday, 22 Jun 2011, 8:32 AM | Message # 8 |
 Colonel
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| How "Old" is too old to serve the empire? Senator Cambrist? I my self along with a few other senators are what you would consider. "elderly" Would you go as far as saying that we are unable to serve the empire?
Slai-Fon Youngblood, Senator of Anobis, and the Bright Jewel sector
Chairman of ISEC (Imperial Senate Ethic's Committee.)
Chairman & CEO of K/Y deep.
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| Senator_Cambrist | Date: Wednesday, 22 Jun 2011, 10:23 AM | Message # 9 |
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Lieutenant general
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| No offense Senator, but yes, I think you would be rather useless in combat at your age. But unlike clones, you age at a normal rate—this time next year, you'll be a year older. This time next year, the clones will be three years older, and so on. Growth acceleration takes its toll, Senator, and it also causes another difference between you and clones; "clone madness." Sooner or later many of the first generation of clones are going to lose their minds, and the question is whether we want them armed when this happens.
As for the clones having the option to end their own lives, as I said, it should be an option. I can't imagine the clones, who understand that their purpose is to fight and die, really want to retire quietly on some dull, pastoral planet. It seems cruel, to me, to require them to do so, and to deny them the option of having a noble death in service to the Empire, if they want it.
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| Exar_Ray | Date: Thursday, 23 Jun 2011, 5:25 PM | Message # 10 |
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Major general
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| Then if the Clones want to purge into the sea to end their lives, then so be it. However before we start pushing them off, we free their minds from orders and commands, blasters and armor, and see how they enjoy the fruits of their sacrifice first.
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| Tremaine_Fowlkes | Date: Friday, 24 Jun 2011, 4:56 PM | Message # 11 |
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| I concur with Senator Ray here. If the Clones want to end their lives, they should be able to due to their own choice. But if they want to try a peaceful way of living, they can. The problem is, like Senator Ray said and I'll paraphrase a bit, the clones are essentially created and programmed to do the fighting for the Old Republic and then now Galactic Empire. In addition to that, they went into the war right out of the gate. They have been exposed with so much violence that it may take some time for them to adjust. We can help them do that with a health care plan and a system of rehabilitation in place. While they were essentially created, they're also humans. They deserve our respect, because they had done so much in their efforts to keep the galaxy a safe place to live in.
I propose that a health care plan and a system of rehabilitation be installed in place for strictly clones-only. We could have a discussion about this and come up with a suitable one right here. I am sure they would appreciate our efforts being put into this.
Tremaine Fowlkes
Senator of Telos IV
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| LomenRyuun | Date: Friday, 08 Jul 2011, 6:42 AM | Message # 12 |
 Lieutenant general
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| I hate to be the, shall we say, cruel voice here, but perhaps the clone troopers can still serve in a capacity such as they currently hold. Yes, their bodies are deteriorating and yes, as Senator Cambrist points out, clone madness and a large amount of genetically identical people in society are problems.
For once, the problem here may have been solved, unintentionally, by the late and unlamented Confederacy of Independent Systems in their creature Grievous.
If a clone's mind is sound, what is to prevent us from offering them the choice of retirement or continuation on in a cyborg body, able to serve the Empire and its glory? Even if, say, half the existing clones opt for this, it will mean many less clones we will need to accommodate for in society.
Lomen Ryuun
Senator, Doldur Sector
Senator, Druckenwell
Representative, Monor II (10 BBY - 9 BBY)
Representative, Geridard
Representative, Boranall
Representative, Therenor Prime
Vice-chairman, Defense Committee (Temporarily suspended)
Controlling Shareholder - Druckenwell Arms Corporation
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| Senator_Cambrist | Date: Friday, 08 Jul 2011, 11:20 AM | Message # 13 |
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Lieutenant general
Group: Users
Messages: 761
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| The cost of this would be prohibitive.
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