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Cato Neimoidia OOC
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| Jace_Varitek | Date: Monday, 12 Jul 2010, 10:36 PM | Message # 1 |
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| Jamie asked me to post this for him, because he's not able to sign into the forum at the moment on his, as he put it, "shitty montucky internet." He thinks he'll be able to post on Thursday or Friday, however. In the meantime, here's his post, to Malcolm Cross: "Personally I feel the damage called by Jaron's single star destroyer firing on a pair of lucrehulks for two turns, frankly unrealistic. Incredible Cross Sections (ROTS) refers to the fact that it takes a flotilla (listed as 6) of venators to take down the shields of a Lucrehulk. While this may be in contrast to the game Republic Commando, and Subsequent book, we have established that games and books of games are not good technical sources, and on this, a very technical matter, the detailed numbers in ICS are logically the more sensible ones to apply to this situation." This is, of course, all in reference to the Raid at Cato Neimoidia thread. I'll refrain from commenting on this until Cross has had his say.
Jace Varitek
Manager/Administrator from January 2003 to Present
My recent posts here, pre-2009 archives here
"When my information changes, I change my opinion. What do you do, sir?"
—John Maynard Keynes
Furthermore, a dancing Wookiee:
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| Augustus_Valerian | Date: Thursday, 15 Jul 2010, 10:42 AM | Message # 2 |
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| In his reference to ICS, the only one that makes this reference is in the Episode III ICS in reference to the Clone Wars-era modifications to Lucrehulk-class Battleships. However, in this case at Cato Neimoidia, the Lucrehulk-class Battle Ships are pre-Clone Wars refit models...and in fact have the same characteristics and stats as the Lucrehulk-class Droid Control Ship, with the exception of the impressive array of communications equipment and Droid Control center. In Republic Commando, the ship in question attempting to take control of the Prosecutor is a Lucrehulk-class Droid Control Ship. The Droid Control Ships were never refitted at all during the Clone Wars...same model that was taken down by a squadron from the RSF at Naboo. The Droid Control Ship in Republic Commando was taken down by a barrage from the Starboard Batteries of the Acclamator-I Assault Ships Prosecutor and Arrestor. That would be three Quad Turbolasers each, which hit the ship for a solid two minutes before it goes critical and begins to explode. No, to crunch some numbers...
Battle of the Prosecutor had a single Lucrehulk, with the same characteristics as these two here, was under fire from six Quad Turbolasers. Raid at Cato Neimoidia as two Lucrehulks...they are under fire from a single Imperial II-class Star Destroyer. For a moment, I must make a commentary on the weaponry of an ISD-II. The most complete list of weaponry lists an ISD-II with a total of eight Octuple Barbette Turbolasers (which could apparently be swtiched into an Ion fire mode), five Heavy Turbolaser Batteries, five Turbolaser Batteries (although some sources list an additional twenty-six batteries), twenty Ion Cannons, and ten Tractor Beam Projectors. Now, there are several EU works that talk about fifty Heavy Turbolasers rather than five batteries of such, leading to a consistent precedent that shows that, at least when dealing with an ISD-II but possibly with any Imperial ship, that a standard battery is ten turrets. This makes sense, including an alternate fire for the octuple barbettes, as that would put the total weaponry to eight Octuple Barbette Turbolasers, fifty Heavy Turbolasers, fifty Turbolasers (or three-hundred-ten if you go with the additional batteries), twenty Ion Cannons, and ten Tractor Beam Projectors, in comparison to the ISD-I's total of six Heavy Turbolaser turets, two Heavy Ion Cannon turrets, two Quad Turbolasers, three Triple Medium Turbolasers, two Medium Turbolasers, sixty Heavy Turbolasers, sixty Ion Cannons, and ten Tractor Beam Projectors. Now, when you compare these statistics, the ISD-I seems more powerful...thus an arguement could be made for the additional batteries as the ISD-II is described in all works as having a vastly more powerful and numerous armament than an ISD-I. Unless Jace wishes, this is perhaps a discussion though for another time. To get back on track, even in being a minimalist about this...this brings to bear four Octuple Barbette Turbolaser turrets, twenty-five Heavy Turbolasers, and at least twelve Turbolasers to bear on each Lucrehulk that are not only more advanced but also more powerful than the six Quad Turbolasers, which amount to twenty-four Turbolasers of the Clone Wars era, while this brings to bear modern weaponry, which has more power behind it, and alot more of it. The Heavy Turbolasers on their own should do the job and much faster than the Prosecutor and Arrestor... the Barbettes are really the wild card here as it is hard to tell their firepower, some sources seem to indicate that they are regular turbolasers, and others seem to indicate that they are also heavy turbolasers, which would make more sense considering their armor work and position. Either way, this far more firepower to both ships than the Lucrehulk in Republic Commando ever took, and far more advanced, and it is of the same statistics and characteristics as the two at Cato Neimoidia, thus leading to a similar result as I have portrayed in this post.
Captain Augustus Valerian
Star Destroyer Vanguard
Message edited by MalcolmCross - Thursday, 15 Jul 2010, 10:43 AM |
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| Simon_Levi | Date: Thursday, 15 Jul 2010, 1:07 PM | Message # 3 |
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| Octuple barbette turbolaser or Ion cannons (8)[10][11]
Heavy turbolaser batteries (5)[3][11]
Turbolaser batteries (5)[3][11]
Additional turbolaser batteries (26+)[11]
Heavy ion cannons (20)[11]
Phylon Q7 tractor beam projectors (10)[11] Is the listed weaponary on Wookieepedia, this definative statement would appear to solve the issue decisively. Equally, as has been stated above, I do not accept the video game source over the ruling of a technical guide. ICS is a far better source than a video game, especially on particulars like this.
Moff of the Tammuz Sector
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| Jace_Varitek | Date: Thursday, 15 Jul 2010, 1:40 PM | Message # 4 |
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| I can't agree more with Kruus on the armament of a Star Destroyer. Cross, your figures are interesting but, nonetheless, the armament is what it is even if what it is isn't what it should be (phew, that's quite a sentence). So yes, we have to go with the figures from Wookieepedia that Kruus has posted, as I'm sure you probably agree. I also agree with Kruus that, of course, a book source (especially a reference book like the Incredible Cross Sections) takes precedence over the game source. However, this is only when the two sources contradict one another. To separate the grain from the chaff in Cross's post, I think he's arguing that they don't, in fact, contradict one another. I don't have the Incredible Cross Sections book, mind you, but the full quote on Wookieepedia is thus: "Each ship was also now so powerful due to the increased amount of power devoted to offensive and defensive systems that a whole flotilla of Republic Star Destroyers was needed just to bring down its shields." This refers to the Clone Wars era modifications, as Cross suggests. These modifications were understandable in a time of war, but we've agreed already, I think, that the ships at Cato Neimoidia do not have these modifications (as they're intended more as merchant vessels than battleships, if, Jamie, I recall correctly our conversation about it before the battle at Cato Neimoidia began). Under the circumstances, then, the battle in Republic Commando doesn't necessarily contradict the Incredible Cross Sections if, indeed, that battle refers to a Lucrehulk without the Clone Wars modifications. As for that battle in Republic Commando, however... (see 7:20 in the video below).
... it does seem a bit unlikely to me that these two Acclamators, sitting there completely stationary, would be able to destroy a Lucrehulk so quickly with what is, combined, basically the firepower of just one Acclamator. I'm willing to say that the mechanics of the game in this case are not necessarily canon. However, the point is still taken that the Lucrehulks pre-Clone Wars modifications were more vulnerable. Does that mean that both of the Lucrehulks at Cato Neimoidia should be destroyed, though? I would say, with respect to Cross, no. That is to say, even considering that the four day posting limit had been exceeded, I think it should take more than one turn to vape two capital ships even with the firepower of an Imperial Star Destroyer. You may recall, Cross, that I mentioned this to you in Messenger some time ago. What I would really prefer to see here is the Lucrehulks taking very significant damage and at least one of them having their shields overwhelmed, but not destroyed. Not yet. Unless anyone has other points that I'm missing, or that I'm getting wrong.
Jace Varitek
Manager/Administrator from January 2003 to Present
My recent posts here, pre-2009 archives here
"When my information changes, I change my opinion. What do you do, sir?"
—John Maynard Keynes
Furthermore, a dancing Wookiee:
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| Augustus_Valerian | Date: Friday, 16 Jul 2010, 0:27 AM | Message # 5 |
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| I don't mean to give off the impression I am attempting to deceive, rather I am attempting to solve. Should one not know, a battery is a loose unit of measure in the world of artillery, that varies from faction to faction, and I'll admit, even depending on the size and caliber of the guns in question. By unit of measure, I mean it is a catch-all phrase for a grouping of guns. It could be as many as ten or twelve, to a few as four or five...usually three or lower, sometimes even four, of a gun are considering Firing Sections rather than Batteries. I merely have sought in my post so solve and define what number a battery in regards to an ISD-II is. The amount of guns in the battery can make a world of difference in the firepower being brought to bear, and merely saying "Oh, a book said it's more powerful than this other thing" as Jamie's defense has presented, brings up a world of controversy. In this case, Jamie seems to be attempting to stick to his guns on the ICS statement in concern to the modified Lucrehulk Battleships. I was told several times by Jace that these two ships in question were of pre-Clone Wars models. Thus, they are of the same characteristic and statistic in every way to a Droid Control Ship, with the exception of communications equipment, which was never refitted. Now, I could have my research wrong, but I don't believe a direct encounter like this ever took place elsewhere in the Canon thus far concerning a Lucrehulk-class Droid Control Ship and Acclamator-I Assault Ship(s), Thus by that fact, game mechanics debate aside, wouldn't that make Republic Commando the de facto Canon on this particular matter? I am not disputing the ICS reference on the capabilities of a Clone Wars refit Lucrehulk-class Battleship, nor the merits of the resource books at all. I am merely saying that it has no standing what so ever because these aren't Clone Wars refit Lucrehulk-class Battleships we're talking about here. While I could dispute your claim of never taking a video game's evidence over a resource book's...as I believe there have been a few occassions in which you have argued a point and refered to X-Wing Alliance, even claiming results of your own simulations in some cases as evidence, I will not. I will however argue that with these ships at Cato Neimoidia not being of Clone Wars refit, you lack solid evidence to dispute my claim in question. If you can find a solid source, which can be checked, in which a contrary course of events has taken place in such a setting as in Republic Commando, refering to the ships themselves not the plot or events upon the ships unless otherwise effecting performance, I'm afraid I will have to continue to press this issue.
Captain Augustus Valerian
Star Destroyer Vanguard
Message edited by MalcolmCross - Friday, 16 Jul 2010, 0:32 AM |
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| Jace_Varitek | Date: Friday, 16 Jul 2010, 10:03 PM | Message # 6 |
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| I addressed these points in my post, did I not? And for the record, I didn't think you were being deceptive. I will grant you that "battery" is a maddeningly unhelpful term, since it's not defined. I'll look around for more information myself, and please do pull me aside on Messenger the next time you're on so we can compare notes (again, because it was pretty late at night the last time we discussed this). In the meantime, though, I think the suggestion I concluded with in my post is a reasonable one, even without the armament having been defined precisely.
Jace Varitek
Manager/Administrator from January 2003 to Present
My recent posts here, pre-2009 archives here
"When my information changes, I change my opinion. What do you do, sir?"
—John Maynard Keynes
Furthermore, a dancing Wookiee:
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| Augustus_Valerian | Date: Friday, 23 Jul 2010, 12:22 PM | Message # 7 |
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| Jace and myself reached an agreeable state of things, and I have edited my last post accordingly.
Captain Augustus Valerian
Star Destroyer Vanguard
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