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"Alea Iacta Est" OOC
Jace_VaritekDate: Wednesday, 01 Dec 2010, 12:03 PM | Message # 1
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My take on the jammers, which are in dispute in this thread (be warned that, as usual, my solution is likely to satisfy no one)—Crin's argument does seem to be along the lines of the "ion cannon principle" that I've mentioned in the past (the second paragraph of this post. Basically, if it doesn't happen a lot in Star Wars there's some reason why it doesn't happen; capital ships having jammers, as Crin suggests, could indeed be a reason why scans of those ships, as far as we know, aren't prevalent). However, if there is a jammer on Volus's ship, I'm afraid it would have to be mentioned in the post immediately following Bernard's scanning of the ship. The fact that it wasn't, I think, has to be interpreted as Volus's ship does have the jammer but simply didn't turn it on soon enough.

However.

I do think a scanner of the sort that would be necessary to get a full readout of Volus's ship would probably be a military grade piece of hardware that, I have to assume, would be illegal on a civilian freighter, if this is, in fact, a civilian freighter. That might be something to bear in mind.


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Furthermore, a dancing Wookiee:
 
Bernard_OrielDate: Wednesday, 01 Dec 2010, 12:19 PM | Message # 2
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Naturally I agree with you Jace, in this instance however, by "full scan" I naturally mean "full to the abilities of the ships sensors", which in this case would simply likely consist of a 3d model of the exterior of the vessel and such. I would agree with the assumption that it would take a military class sensor to scan the interior of the ship and/or be able to recognise weapon systems by their energy signals. However, I assume from the 3d image one could visually discern large weapons etc.

Bernard Oriel
Senator for the Planet of Vjun
1st Earl Malreaux (Second Creation)
Vjun Delegation to the Imperial Senate
 
Crin_StarDate: Wednesday, 01 Dec 2010, 12:34 PM | Message # 3
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Obviously they aren't getting anything inside but in the case of a 3d model once again all you would likely be able to get is a basic shape of the ship about as much as you would get from a single photograph, greatly dependant upon the angle of the ship to your own vessel. And also the point would also bring that you wouldn't be able to recognize weapons systems because of once again that would require internal scans and batteries which haven't been powered up aren't going to register as such but just another hunk of metal to be identified by shape.

As for my arguement on the jammers, it is very likely they are an ACTIVE system or one which is always running because it is what makes the most sense as to why, if scanners are as powerful as oriel suggests(they arent refer to link i showed you) then its very likely they are always on, even on smaller ships such as shuttles and other craft. After all the empire wasn't able to identify the rebels were on a Lambda class shuttle in the example you gave or their equipment or anything about the interior of the shuttle craft. The only reason it wasn't approved immediately was because Vader himself inquired about it, which he did because of the force telling him luke was onboard.

Message edited by Crin_Star - Wednesday, 01 Dec 2010, 12:38 PM
 
Bernard_OrielDate: Wednesday, 01 Dec 2010, 12:55 PM | Message # 4
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I think the Empire likely could've detected there were x life forms aboard etc, and seen their placements (life form scanners have been established as on ships many times). It is, however, unlikely that they could detect the species of the people aboard at that range, and honestly chewbacca doesnt have that much more mass than a man anyway. That said, if they had been carrying a huge plasma charge, im sure itd be detected.

As for seeing weapons, I assume only large ones could be seen (your heavy twin turbolasers and giant cannons), wheras smaller weapons might be invisible. To take this picture as an example as a highly situational shot of a Venator, the large twin turbolaser turrets are easily seen.



Bernard Oriel
Senator for the Planet of Vjun
1st Earl Malreaux (Second Creation)
Vjun Delegation to the Imperial Senate


Message edited by Bernard_Oriel - Wednesday, 01 Dec 2010, 12:55 PM
 
Crin_StarDate: Wednesday, 01 Dec 2010, 1:02 PM | Message # 5
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There are many ways to hide such things. Like putting them on the side of the vessel which may or may not be visable to your ship, depeding on the call of the defender..and well guess what Ill say:). And to point out the shuttle flew right infront of the bridge section of the Executor class star destroyer and they STILL couldn't detect what the rebels were bringing onto the forest moon. And Chewbacca had A LOT more mass than a human after all a wookiee is taller, as shown by chewie in the movies and tend to have more bulk. And if THAT weren't enough they are also covered in fur, thus the nickname walking carpet, (if it escaped you).
 
Bernard_OrielDate: Wednesday, 01 Dec 2010, 1:12 PM | Message # 6
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As stated, a sensor scan would consist of multiple different bands, many of them refracting and reflecting off most surfaces (how sensors work), and so to say the scanners could only "see" one part of a ship is silly. To pretend that the multiple vessels who fly through your system wouldnt have been able to scan a ship in orbit (atleast well enough to give a fully detailed 3d image) is silly. Equally your vessel was said to be moving around, thus opening more parts of the vessel to comprehensive scans.

These people have to be able to navigate around space, asteroid belts, etc

Chewbacca is 7'3 (roughly tall) and is portrayed by a guy in a suit.. Humans have been recorded up to 8'11 tall. Thus its fair to assume chewbacca has a similar size to a large human, and a similar mass to an overweight large human. The fact he is covered in hair would have very little impact on his mass (hair isn't heavy, its also dead cells) or his overall energy profile.

But really, this argument doesn't need to go on. We've agreed basic scans would be available, and everyone knows that a vessel sitting in-system wouldn't be able to keep its shape secret. So were set to procede.


Bernard Oriel
Senator for the Planet of Vjun
1st Earl Malreaux (Second Creation)
Vjun Delegation to the Imperial Senate
 
Crin_StarDate: Wednesday, 01 Dec 2010, 1:26 PM | Message # 7
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Multiple bands doesn't really matter in this instance. Because what it comes down to is that 3d models of anything in orbit isn't the power of normal scanners. They are built to tell you..hey somethings in you way move change your damn course, idiot. Essentially and I will still state that they are NOT powerful enough to penetrate the hull and generate a 3d image of ships. Now you pointed out earths capabilities in deep space..we can detect large clouds, stars, and planets WHICH ARE REALLY BIG. Thousands and thousands of miles wide if not hundreds of thousands of miles wide. For example our own sun is 13,920,000,000 kilometers accross at its equator and it is considered relatively small compared to many of the other phenoms which we are able to detect via the hubble telescope and on ground observatories.

Now to my point, on this, your scans aren't going to be clear, because you can not provide a SINGLE case in canon where scans provided any sort of 3d model. Instead 3d models were compiled from detailed PLANS already acquired, see Death Star I and II for this point. The rebels acquired the plans for the death star, which was WHY they were so damned important because normal scans wouldn't provide any USEFUL information except maybe its general size and shape. Which is what the 'scans' from the executor provided.

 
Bernard_OrielDate: Wednesday, 01 Dec 2010, 1:45 PM | Message # 8
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Battlefield Holographic Interfaces and Holorecording Binoculars would appear to be indications that basic sensors can produce holographic images.

In the CIS War room they appear to have holographic imaging technology gleaned real time from a battlefield, equally in the clone wars series (horrible source but there you go) 3d images seem to be generated, equally in the X-Wing games close range scans of vessels record a 3d image in your ships console.

Even the modern "scanning" devices on space ships can detect small things at close range. And modern cameras can capture a 3d image with little technology...

The idea that star wars would be behind the real world in this respect is risible.

Equally poggle recieves real-time 3-d scans of the area around his new foundry. Although I think you make the assumption that a visual scan is not a "scan", which would appear to be incorrect, no detection suite would be complete without visual sensors.



Bernard Oriel
Senator for the Planet of Vjun
1st Earl Malreaux (Second Creation)
Vjun Delegation to the Imperial Senate
 
Jace_VaritekDate: Wednesday, 01 Dec 2010, 1:56 PM | Message # 9
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Honestly, gentlemen, this point isn't important at all. It's completely irrelevant to the thread you're in at the moment and there's no reason it should hold it up. Crin—you know that, for reasons that you've told me but that I won't divulge here, none of this really matters. And Jamie, for reasons that we've discussed but which I also won't divulge here, you, too, know why this doesn't matter. I'm not sure what purpose this argument serves, under the circumstances, except to establish who is "right" and who is "wrong" on a really, very minor point. Can we move on from this?

Jace Varitek
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My recent posts here, pre-2009 archives here

"When my information changes, I change my opinion. What do you do, sir?"
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Furthermore, a dancing Wookiee:
 
Crin_StarDate: Wednesday, 01 Dec 2010, 4:14 PM | Message # 10
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The holographic projectors don't really count because as you have said they are visual. Which doesn't really count as a scan seeing as it isn't tell you anything overly useful about the units, nothing you couldn't tell from binoculars and it works via holoprojectors basically from a camera recording the image from mulitple different angles. And considering the fact that the CIS had held Geonosis from some time(Evidenced by the infrastructure already in place) it is logical to assume they had holo projectors which would be able to be quickly deployed. You will also note on those images that there is nothing specific about those units just what they look like to a holo camera, not exactly what your talking about here.

As for the actual scanners, I have said you can have a general size and shape but beyond that your SOL, because as you have agreed the scanner would not be able to penetrate the hull, and as such you WOULDNT BE ABLE TO TELL JACK ABOUT IT. There is no detail scan, because scanners on any of those spectrums listed wouldn't provide you with a detailed scan of a metal hull.

As for chewie, the sheer mass would be much more than a human, because while he was played by an actor in a suit he would STILL have far more mass than a human because of the fact of his general size(ie bulk) and as much as you may deny it, hair may not weigh much individually but neither does a piece of paper by itself. The weight adds up, especially when your body is COVERED in it, especially to the level which Chewie's is.

 
Jace_VaritekDate: Wednesday, 01 Dec 2010, 5:12 PM | Message # 11
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Hello?

Jace Varitek
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My recent posts here, pre-2009 archives here

"When my information changes, I change my opinion. What do you do, sir?"
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Furthermore, a dancing Wookiee:
 
Crin_StarDate: Wednesday, 01 Dec 2010, 6:35 PM | Message # 12
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Hi! are you santa? tongue
 
Jace_VaritekDate: Wednesday, 01 Dec 2010, 7:20 PM | Message # 13
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Conversation over. The 4-day posting limit will be in effect from 1:04 PM this afternoon, the time of Bernard's last post.

Jace Varitek
Manager/Administrator from January 2003 to Present
My recent posts here, pre-2009 archives here

"When my information changes, I change my opinion. What do you do, sir?"
—John Maynard Keynes

Furthermore, a dancing Wookiee:
 
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