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Rancor Graveyard
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| Emperor_Park | Date: Saturday, 20 Aug 2011, 9:09 AM | Message # 1 |
 Lieutenant colonel
Group: Users
Messages: 104
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| The ridiculous nature of trying to "outrun" a concussion missile blast.
The same principle applies for turbolasers, in all cases mentioned.
The talk about the sensors finding it difficult to lock on to the human was a nonsense. Even with modern technology, a full spectrum of sensors (radar/heat/em etc) paired with a computer designed to recognize patterns and objects it would not be a difficult task. With the technology of a civilization which has mastered faster than light travel, anti-gravity etc, the targeting of Vil would be a very easy process, even with the various problems listed.
Incidentally, all of Vil's defenses have required grossly improbable chains of events to create an outcome in which he does not get severely hit. This chain of ridiculously providential events has to end for the sake of realism. Thus I will offer the two following posts, and Vil is free to pick which one he takes.
Avoiding multiple concussion missiles (stated as being more powerful than a single turbolaser strike which is seen to be in levels vastly higher than all modern explosives). This is a BLU-82, a vietnam war era "daisycutter" in effect here. This is a bomb with less than 1/1000th the effect of the kind of bomb at hiroshima and nagasaki, a turbolaser is variously described as being in the kiloton-gigaton range, this means it is 1,000-1,000,000 times more powerful than the bombs dropped in WW2. So, even if I assume that this bomb only has roughly the same effect as a a BLU-82, 1000th of 1000th of the likely minimum power of the weapon in the canon, it has a very large lethal radius (variously reported as 300 to 900 feet/100 to 300 meters). Even if these missiles did not exactly hit Vil, they would more than likely have killed him in the first impact, there is no way in the world he would have survived it and not be passed out and severely injured.
Having consulted with a friend who works testing explosives at the Ministry of Defence, he pointed out to me when I was discussing the practicalities of this post that even a Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (or any modern MBT) would not have any chance of its crew surviving/being anything more than a blasted wreck, within 50 meters, no armour provides the protection of a main battle tank, thus the armour would likely have little effect.. Equally having consulted with a family member who is an ex-army engineer officer, he is confident that even if you were 300m away, in a deep trench (i.e. protected from shrapnel/blast) the weapon would still likely cause respiratory system injuries (from the air being used up by the reaction of the bomb) and also would likely burst the eardrums of most of the people involved.
By all accounts, Vil realised it was an ambush when the missiles were fired, put his cloak on and ran. These missiles are moving at tens of thousands of miles an hour, there is no way he would have made it 100m, let alone the roughly 500m to have a reasonable chance of escaping these explosions without a trench/armoured wall etc.
The chances of him surviving, unharmed, from being fired on are millions to one.
I did not challenge this (frankly BS) defence of "runs away" (bulked out with more words). And Karth reinforced this. However, I let this hugely improbable event slide and ran with it, for the sake of flow of the rp.
Falling on a Gelagrub
After the divine hand of providence saw it fit to spare Vil from the complete obliteration which ought to take place when one is has massive missiles hit nearby (despite my attempts to call non-lethal damage). Vil did finally fall into unconciousness, and fell on top of a Gelagrub (and then attempted to call one of his *I escape* posts).
Firstly, the rules in their entirety make it clear that calling random deus ex machina are not an acceptable way to rp. When Vil Haran had no way to escape he called a random animal appearing (almost the dictionary definition of deus ex machina) and taking him away to random friendly natives. This needs no more explaining, it is a BS move and not one which should stand.
Next, onto the practicalities. Vil fell on a gelagrub (on his back, by the way he describes seeing birds as he lies there semi concious). I did not call this at first but when I examined the issue I realised it certainly did merit further scrutiny.
I even went out and bought the toy. I tried to drop the clone trooper doll onto the gelagrub as I moved it along, strangely the trooper did not stay on one time in the hundred checked times. Why is this? Gelagrubs have no particular bits which would allow you to fall onto them and stay on (without holding very tight, clearly impossible unconcious).
They have a smooth rounded shape, with no points of friction to get stuck onto. I don't think an unconcious man falling on a grub would equal the grub carrying him away.
Furthermore the Mandalorian battle armour Vil apparently has has few points which could "snag" on anything.
Also, I don't really know how intelligent these animals are (likely not very, as theyre just big bugs) but lets assume theyre as intelligent as a horse. If a horse is running away from a fire (which they would do with admirable gusto) a man falling on top of them (let alone a heavily armoured one) would likely just cause the (even the best trained) horse to panic and kick the man off then continue running.
This is implied to be a wild beast, it would likely turn on a person who was snagged on it. It is counter intuitive to continue running and not attempt to shed a big weight which has attached itself to you if you are running for your life. Gelagrubs seem to be herbivores, these are animals used to being hunted, so they would likely not react well to a heavy creature dropping on their back.
Thus Vil attempting to call the fact that
A) A gelagrub was there conveniently for him to pass out on.
B ) He managed to stay on the gelagrub despite him being unconcious and unable to grab on.
C) The Gelagrub didn't just panic and kick him off.
D) The Gelagrub wasnt injured/spooked by his fall onto it.
All of these equal easily a million to one chance.
On it, "with out knowing the exact composition of the metal, was a far off dream. To find such a small target with out knowing what metal made up his armor, would take hours, if not days to find an exact lock between Vil's armor and the backdrop of large under ground deposits"
A) Underground metal deposits are deus ex machina.
B ) Armour has a distinctive shape, metal in that shape would be easy to recognise on sensors.
C) Mandalorian Iron seems to be a well known metal.
D) Small targets and big targets are not really relevant, with the distances of space involved, scanning a starfighter which is as far away from the scanner as the moon is from earth is vastly more challenging a prospect than scanning a man in armour some hundreds of meters away. The response you would have on sensors for a starfighter millions of miles away would be hundreds of times higher than a man in armour on a planet. Technology is seen to be vastly in advance of our own, this is not an area which it seems plausible to call a difficulty in.
Turbolasers inaccurate
Why? Why would a Turbolaser from a ship in a geostationary orbit be innacurate? It is a laser weapon, it goes in a straight line and takes a period of time for the blast to get from A-B. It is effectively the same as one still object firing at another. There were home computers which could do this in the 1970s. The math required to target a turbolaser firing from a geostationary orbit (basic angles and geometry) could be done by myself, at home, with a pocket calculator, in less than a minute or two. This kind of math could be done by a computer in under a picosecond. Why would it be innacurate? Do lasers deviate over distance (despite it not being a very long one at all from orbit-ground)?
Complete nonsense. I can understand the argument that they might be ponderous (slow moving mounts etc) or slow firing (only 1-2 shots a second).. but please.. inaccurate? How can a laser not be accurate?
I could go on.. and on.. and on.. with my criticism of Vil's posts on this thread, and how they really do not have any relation to fact, soley rely on McGuffins and Deus Ex Machina and million to one chances. This is not rping which is any fun, and comes close to acting like a god. It is essentially autoing.
This post is not intended as a criticism of Vil as a person, but simply is me taking the posts made apart (systematically) and the reason for me posting what I intend to post.
I will make two posts, and Vil can choose which post he will implement and will happen, each will be realistic and relevent. He can challenge this all if he likes (so is is right), but I would urge that with the one ruling already, it would be much more sensible to accept one of the outcomes I offer.
I should also add before posting this I did attempt to contact Vil to come to a satisfactory resolution, and I do apologise for bringing negative vibes by posting this up on the OOC Board.
Thus I will make 2 posts, with two options. Vil can pick which he wants to be the actual post he rps with. I feel this is needed to end the chain of Deus Ex Machina.
1) Vil stays on the Gelagrub, as stated in his post it continues advancing forward despite the turbolaser fire, it is burned up by the blasts, as is Vil, he dies.
2) Vil falls off the Gelagrub (after his mysterious ride) and is hit by the blast back from several of the weapons deployed around. Vil is knocked completely unconcious.
His Imperial Majesty Antonius I
_________________________
Emperor of the Atrisians
Baron Park of Nevar
Vanquisher of the Mandalorians
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| Ka-Dek | Date: Saturday, 20 Aug 2011, 9:47 AM | Message # 2 |
 Sergeant
Group: Users
Messages: 39
Status: Offline
| If I had pulled a space creature rescuing me when I was captured at Volus.. I wouldn't have been allowed to, same thing really.
Ka-Dek
Grand Master of the Jedi Order, Visionary, Mystic Sage
Renegade from the Inquisitorius after breaking his mental programming.
Former Knight-Sentinel
Formerly Assistant Curator, Jedi Archives
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| Baird | Date: Saturday, 20 Aug 2011, 11:26 AM | Message # 3 |
 Major general
Group: Users
Messages: 465
Status: Offline
| if he were a Jedi. He'd probably be able to out run a missile barrage, force speed and all.
But here's my view on a few things.
The Mandalorian armor, even though Vil may be very adapt to it, it would still slow you down a bit, unless it were somehow modified to increase speed, but Jace is always anal about special things like that, unless you're a Jedi, so he wouldn't get too far, get blown away the explosion, not him in the middle of the explosion, but the force wave of an explosion. Unconscious is better then dead, in my opinion. live to fight another day.
It is a bit over-kill, like karth said to missile barrage one person.
But I say we allow our fine management team to figure out a solution that everyone can agree on.
Commander in the Grand Army of the Republic (Former)
Friend of the oppressed.
Liberator of the enthralled.
Damian Baird.
Message edited by Baird - Saturday, 20 Aug 2011, 11:32 AM |
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| Emperor_Park | Date: Saturday, 20 Aug 2011, 11:43 AM | Message # 4 |
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Lieutenant colonel
Group: Users
Messages: 104
Status: Offline
| I hear you baird.
Barrages on a single person is overkill. But so is BDZ on a planet to get a few rebels. The Baron has a priority, capture or kill the rebel.
I honestly don't think I'd do this with a character who was anything but massively irresponsible and cavalier.
His Imperial Majesty Antonius I
_________________________
Emperor of the Atrisians
Baron Park of Nevar
Vanquisher of the Mandalorians
Message edited by Baron_Park - Saturday, 20 Aug 2011, 11:46 AM |
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| LordZarcaine | Date: Saturday, 20 Aug 2011, 12:42 PM | Message # 5 |
 Colonel
Group: Users
Messages: 192
Status: Offline
| So your answer to someone, who by the way looks like they were trying to make the thread harder for you, than you appear to be making it for yourself. It just looks like you've been making it too easy for you to accomplish your goal of forcing someone into a position you want, is to basically tell them, screw you and what you want, your character will work for me, or I'll kill you, even if it means you'd be breaking rule 1.1, since it doesnt seem like Vil's death is going to push forward any kind of major plot on AGW.
I'd have to agree though. The amount of weapons you're using is over kill. It's like if I tried to kill a fly in my house, by shooting at it with a cannon.
Lord Zarcaine Kuriyoshi
Lord of Chandaar
Message edited by LordZarcaine - Saturday, 20 Aug 2011, 2:17 PM |
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| Emperor_Park | Date: Saturday, 20 Aug 2011, 2:25 PM | Message # 6 |
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Lieutenant colonel
Group: Users
Messages: 104
Status: Offline
| You know, if you're going to pretend to be someone else it is a very good idea not to pretty much copy paste a previous statement.
"The fact is though, you have blatantly disregarded every one of post that even had a shred of a point that would see you failing in your "I dont care what Vil's writer wants, he's going to by my bitch" mission to force my character into a place that I do not want him in. Coupled with your continued and blatant breaking of rule. 1.1"
But I digress.
Vil's death will accomplish a lot in the way of establishing Baron Park as having a reputation for butchery. It will give him a lot of clout in his commercial dealings and make him a household name among the other mandalorian factions. Killing Vil does demonstrably further the Park storyline.
I admit it is a harsh and uncomfortable choice, capture or death, but it IS a choice. Vil has ignored reality in his posts, and has constantly attempted to rope in deus ex machina to suit him in the thread. The fact remains that Vil made a terrible defence to the last attack on him, and so I am calling damage as a result (he essentially blundered into the attack). I am strenuously attempting not to kill Vil, even now.
Originally I would rather not have killed Vil but now I have no specific feeling due to his style of rp coupled with constant complaints and holdups, I have opted for this drastic posting option. Death or Injury, these are the logical results from being in the area involved at present. I see no conflict with rule 1.1. as I have made clear. To pick death would be Vil's own choice.
His Imperial Majesty Antonius I
_________________________
Emperor of the Atrisians
Baron Park of Nevar
Vanquisher of the Mandalorians
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| LordZarcaine | Date: Saturday, 20 Aug 2011, 2:43 PM | Message # 7 |
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Colonel
Group: Users
Messages: 192
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| Wow, assuming that I'm the writer of Vil just shows how far up your ass your head really is stuck.
I do seem to remember though that "Calling damage" seems to be "Modding" the character. Which is breaking rule 1.1 Plus from what I've read, it's never been implied or mentioned once that the thread serves any kind of plot to further Park, so forcing death on Vil would be breaking rule 1.3. You've also put him into a position where he has no real means of countering them, that you wouldn't have a problem with. I'll admit I've been brain storming with the writer, and his most recent way he's come up with to get Vil out of the situation you're forcing him into, would more than likely cause you to complain about it.
But as it seems that you yourself could care less for what the writer wants, I'm sure that Vil would care less with what you want to happen, plus I wouldn't see anything wrong with the solution he's come up with.
Lord Zarcaine Kuriyoshi
Lord of Chandaar
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| Emperor_Park | Date: Saturday, 20 Aug 2011, 2:46 PM | Message # 8 |
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Lieutenant colonel
Group: Users
Messages: 104
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| Okay.  I get you're not Vil 
His Imperial Majesty Antonius I
_________________________
Emperor of the Atrisians
Baron Park of Nevar
Vanquisher of the Mandalorians
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| Karth_DeQora | Date: Saturday, 20 Aug 2011, 2:49 PM | Message # 9 |
 Colonel general
Group: Administrators
Messages: 1157
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| The amount of maturity shown by everyone in this thread is just staggering.
We'll work this out in messenger. Later.
Man, Myth, Administrative God. Also plays a mean kazoo.
Jace Varitek: In Northern California we just have gangs of vigilante interior decorators.
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| Jace_Varitek | Date: Tuesday, 23 Aug 2011, 12:11 PM | Message # 10 |
 Generalissimo
Group: Administrators
Messages: 2245
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| I suspect it won't please many, but this ruling is the result of, I'm told, 4 hours of management discussion on the issue, throughout which compromise upon compromise was reached, tossed out, and other compromises reached, tossed out, etc. Throughout this process I think it's fair to say every concievable point of view was seriously considered and probably even agreed upon and then later disagreed upon. This ruling, however, represents the final and quite firm agreement we've come to on this, and it's simple; Baron Park has broken no rule here and we have no basis to intervene any more than we would have when Jak Merston was captured by Verilia under comparable circumstances. That said, however, if this persists as a problem management may indeed implement a rule against the use of overwhelming force on PCs (our preferance is to avoid a rule of this sort, however).
As I said, I suspect this ruling won't be pleasing to everyone, but it's a dispassionate enforcement of the rules as they are, based on no personal prejudices or considerations of expediency, save one; we find it prudent to auto Vil's capture as much as possible (it's something of a foregone conclusion), owing to the improbability of much of what has occurred thus far. In particular, most of Vil Haran's series of fortunate events that we must assume didn't take place. We rejoin our story, then, with Haran in the custody of either Park or Rath Deschain (as it's my understanding that Park intends to hand Haran to Deschain), preferably with his limbs intact.*
* Admittedly, there is no rule against severing a character's limbs against its typist's will, only killing a character against its typist's will. But I've long been of the opinion that the traumatic loss of a limb represents a psychological shift in a character that's largely tantamount to killing them, at least as they were. The phrase "dead to me" comes to mind. Although I speak for myself on this particular issue and not necessarily for Jaron or Karth, I do discourage it as strenuously as I can.
Jace Varitek
Manager/Administrator from January 2003 to Present
My recent posts here, pre-2009 archives here
"When my information changes, I change my opinion. What do you do, sir?"
—John Maynard Keynes
Furthermore, a dancing Wookiee:
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