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No! Nooooo!!!
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| Karth_DeQora | Date: Sunday, 18 Sep 2011, 3:15 PM | Message # 16 |
 Colonel general
Group: Administrators
Messages: 1157
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| But... but you are my bestest friend in the whole wide world!
*gives him a teddy bear that has a note, the note says "I'm sorry, buddy"*
Man, Myth, Administrative God. Also plays a mean kazoo.
Jace Varitek: In Northern California we just have gangs of vigilante interior decorators.
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| Havoc | Date: Sunday, 18 Sep 2011, 3:16 PM | Message # 17 |
 Lieutenant general
Group: Users
Messages: 539
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| =D!!!!!!!!!
I'm sorry for all those means things I said about to you.
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| Karth_DeQora | Date: Sunday, 18 Sep 2011, 3:17 PM | Message # 18 |
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Colonel general
Group: Administrators
Messages: 1157
Status: Offline
| I knew you cared, I just knew it!
Man, Myth, Administrative God. Also plays a mean kazoo.
Jace Varitek: In Northern California we just have gangs of vigilante interior decorators.
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| Havoc | Date: Sunday, 18 Sep 2011, 3:18 PM | Message # 19 |
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Lieutenant general
Group: Users
Messages: 539
Status: Offline
| Only when you're nice to me.
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| Karth_DeQora | Date: Sunday, 18 Sep 2011, 3:19 PM | Message # 20 |
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Colonel general
Group: Administrators
Messages: 1157
Status: Offline
| I'm always nice... whatchu talkin' about?
Man, Myth, Administrative God. Also plays a mean kazoo.
Jace Varitek: In Northern California we just have gangs of vigilante interior decorators.
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| Havoc | Date: Sunday, 18 Sep 2011, 3:21 PM | Message # 21 |
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Lieutenant general
Group: Users
Messages: 539
Status: Offline
| *Looks around*
That night where we were throwing darts at a picture of Jamie, and you didn't throw your last dart!!!
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| Karth_DeQora | Date: Sunday, 18 Sep 2011, 3:23 PM | Message # 22 |
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Colonel general
Group: Administrators
Messages: 1157
Status: Offline
| I was too drunk! What if I'd hit that midget that was sitting near the dart board?
Man, Myth, Administrative God. Also plays a mean kazoo.
Jace Varitek: In Northern California we just have gangs of vigilante interior decorators.
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| Havoc | Date: Sunday, 18 Sep 2011, 3:24 PM | Message # 23 |
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Lieutenant general
Group: Users
Messages: 539
Status: Offline
| Well then he and his twin shouldn't have been in the God D*** way then!!!
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| Jace_Varitek | Date: Sunday, 18 Sep 2011, 11:05 PM | Message # 24 |
 Generalissimo
Group: Administrators
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| I didn't post a video of Ewoks blinking. I didn't say that no changes are good, ever. I didn't say Blu Ray quality isn't nice. That said, the movies are not the same. The characters are not the same. The story is not the same. I can point out a litany of minor things in the trilogy that demonstrate this point ("your father wanted you to have this when you were old enough"), but more importantly some of us remember a time when Star Wars was about Luke Skywalker, not Darth Vader—an "everyman" character, not a supermanchild born of a virgin and destined to save the galaxy from himself. This was a massive shift in the dynamic of the original trilogy that was introduced with the prequels (and which Lucas now claims, falsely, was his intention all along). Even this might not be terrible if the portrayal of Vader throughout the prequels wasn't quite so horrible; he is a brooding, capricious dolt whose fall to the Dark Side was so poorly portrayed as to make no sense at all to a thoughtful adult. But I'll set my criticisms of the prequels aside, because that's not what this is about—not directly, at least.
I didn't mind any of the edits to the original trilogy that occurred prior to the prequels (some you may disagree, but despite the mean things Ja'nar has said about you I think most of you actually won't). The remastered version was fine with me, the special edition was fine. These were cosmetic changes and a case could be made that they helped George Lucas convey things that he would have if the technology was available to him in the 70's and 80's (the Wampa's appearance in the special edition is a good example of that; the original Wampa suit was so laughable that it's the reason all the Wampa scenes were deleted from the original Episode V—scenes which are available now on the Blu Ray release, incidentally).
But what we have now are unnecessary edits to the original trilogy that are intended simply to establish continuity between the trilogy and the prequels (in other words, to cover George Lucas's failures as a filmmaker, and also indulging his every whim); thus, we've seen Obi-Wan's howl in Episode IV replaced with the sound of that forgettable CGI dragon thing from Episode III, and of course the original actor who played Vader in Episode VI was replaced with Hayden Christiansen, etc. But to come to the point, the "No" scene I linked to above is a change in Vader's character more significant than his appearance (I explained this to you in Messenger already, but I'll reiterate for everyone else's benefit).
The original scene is a thoughtful moment of internal catharsis for Vader. It's a moment when—driven by the emotional turmoil of seeing Palpatine torturing his son before his eyes, Palpatine's complete and unmitigated evil on full display—Vader questions all he has become and the poor decisions he's made in his life. In seeing Luke being tortured and killed and knowing in his heart that it's wrong, he knows then that all the hurt he's caused and horrors he's committed are wrong, too. And he thinks to himself, "No more." The viewer can intuit this internal dialogue that Vader has with himself from his silence in that moment (the audience having been gently reminded multiple times earlier in the film that "there is still good in him").
Now, with this new edit...
The impulsive, unthinking, unlearning Anakin of the prequels sees his son being killed and doesn't like it (duh), so in a moment of yet more rage he shouts "Nooo!" in an animalistic fashion and throws the Emperor into the shaft. He learns nothing in this moment now. He acknowledges none of his flaws or mistakes or the pain that he's caused to anyone else. He just saves his son, which is something anyone would do.
This is not the same as Ewoks blinking. I don't care about Ewoks blinking or making the door to Jabba's Palace bigger or including a Dug in his throne room or know anyone who does.
That said, I didn't bring this up; I just posted the video so people could come to conclusions of their own. But I have noticed a tendency of reaction among people who seem to resent appreciation of the Star Wars films on anything more than a superficial level. This began with the prequels, and the hoards of unthinking prepubescent Internet Age fans who were drawn to Star Wars at that time and in the decade since and who have no patience for a Star Wars film without modern CGI and endless action sequences (witness all the resentment about the romance scenes in Episode II, for instance. By which I mean resenting them for being there at all, not resenting them for being terrible, which of course they are). This "new" fan doesn't like being told they're not smart enough to appreciate the original films, and so it is that criticisms of the prequels and the changes to the original trilogy are dismissed as the whining of cranky purists, and no consideration is given to the criticisms themselves. Call it an anti-intellectual tendency among the "new" generation of Star Wars fans, and it's something that's become more common even among rather smart people who, not unlike Tea Party supporters, find some personal validation in joining arms, or rather feet, and stomping the "common wisdom" to death.
I'm not pointing fingers and I'm not psychoanalyzing anyone, but there did appear to be a "common wisdom" that everyone seemed content with in this particular thread until one person agitated aggressively against it in what was, incidentally, one of the most bridge burning posts I've seen on so frivolous a topic. The number of strawmen who perished in the course of the post is worthy of a memorial inscribed with the words "Never again, please." I think we have to agree to disagree, because I doubt agreement will be found between, on the one hand, those who pose reasoned concerns about these edits to the original trilogy and, on the other hand, those who say "Shut up. You're wrong, get a life." There's no building a bridge on that jagged terrain.
Jace Varitek
Manager/Administrator from January 2003 to Present
My recent posts here, pre-2009 archives here
"When my information changes, I change my opinion. What do you do, sir?"
—John Maynard Keynes
Furthermore, a dancing Wookiee:
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| OrionKarath | Date: Sunday, 18 Sep 2011, 11:49 PM | Message # 25 |
 Lieutenant general
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| Jace, you bring up an excellent though in your post, which pieces together a thought I've had for a long time, but was perhaps incomplete in forming an explanation on... perhaps it still is. This "unthinking fan" of recent introduction into the realm of RP, can perhaps be seen in portrayal of characters. You seem to be able to tell, sometimes, when someone has "joined" the family of Star Wars nerds Indeed, there are exceptions, there are always exceptions to anything, but the main trend is what I speak of, that I've noticed. Before anyone becomes offended, there are few within this group I speak of. I think I'm one of those who peruse other groups out there, sometimes for inspiration, sometimes to explore a young idea in a more open forum as a test for its application here, sometimes to look into fulfilling my AU interest (of varying degrees), sometimes to look into how things are done elsewhere and see how we can improve AGW, sometimes to looking into how NOT to do things in AGW, and, of course, just to enjoy seeing some RP from other peoples and in other ways.
It is out there, I see these trends. The unforgiving, obedient tool, unthinking Imperial officer, who would off himself if Palpatine willed it (even if he had a slight thought that he willed it sometimes); never someone who thins about their actions, never someone who has a reason for following the Empire, never someone who thinks the Empire is wrong (unless they are defecting or were always a Rebel spy), never the Imperial who wishes to reform the Empire from within. The kind, Jedi-loving, honorable Rebel who is an absolute golden boy. No militants, no Imperial defectors, no anarchists, no one willing to exact upon the Empire its same tactics, no mercenaries, no rogues, and never, ever former Separatists (because they HAD to be evil in the prequels, and all of them had to be oppressive assholes who just disappear). A Jedi always has to be completely good, rigidly following the Jedi code, and almost always having a love interest to prove everyone wrong or tettering on the brink of falling to the Dark Side, with the most simple things cause their fall, and almost always having a love interest who ends up being the main source of the cause of their fall (And almost always falling to "save" or "protect" them). A Sith always has to be a raging, emotional unstable, beastial ball of action who cares for no one else (except an inexplicable love interest who blindly follows them). Gone is the day of a Sith of reason, or a thinking Sith; one who is following the dark side for a logical reason.
We rarely have these stereotypes pop up here, or if they do the RP quickly changes them (most of the time), but they do exist, and this is indeed due to this unthinking fan that has come into existence. Everyone has to be Leia, or Tarkin, or Luke, or Anakin. It's all about fulfilling the stereotype of a certain "figurehead" character of every class or occupation. To this, I partly blame the MMOs (Yes, despite being a huge fan of the Star Wars MMOs, I admit the negatives. Try not to feint) which have used this system, Galaxies more so than TOR, in their character builds. The bad does come with good however. For as much this unthinking fan is penetrating Star Wars, so is a new breed of fan, bringing with them fresh ideas and a fresh look that we, as long established fans (some of us more than others) do not have, and in some cases are incapable of having due to our long time in the culture. With that said however, I do agree with Jace's analysis of the changes to Anakin, which coincides with the changes with the portrayal of the Sith by the fans and new works on canon.
Orion Karath
Manager from June 2009 to Present, Administrator from December 2011 to Present
My posts here, pre-2009 archives here
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| Ilanah_Thanatos | Date: Monday, 19 Sep 2011, 3:19 AM | Message # 26 |
 Colonel general
Group: Users
Messages: 891
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| So to lighten the mood a little....
From one SW fan to another (you know who you people are....)...
Blinking Ewok eyes might just be creepier than blank, glassy, constantly staring Ewok eyes. Just sayin'. Those creepy little bears always freaked me out to a certain degree anyway.
And I think Havoc in a construction helmet is a hilarious mental image.
Ilanah R. Thanatos
Senator of Chandrila
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| Jace_Varitek | Date: Monday, 19 Sep 2011, 10:10 AM | Message # 27 |
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Generalissimo
Group: Administrators
Messages: 2245
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| Indeed, it's fun to stay at the YMCA.
And yeah, perhaps creepy. I probably wouldn't have noticed though if it wasn't mentioned. In all, there's like 3 blinks.
I agree with Orion also, although I don't "shop around" other RPs these days so my experience of this is limited to the distant past when I did do so; the Sith, which have perennially been poorly understood and even more poorly RP'd, do indeed have sort of an "Anakin Syndrome" in which one or both of exactly two things is always the cause of the character's fall to the Dark Side; jealous anxiety about their girlfriend and/or the death of their parents. The thing is how it's portrayed, though; in the prequels it was portrayed horribly, but I've seen people with a lot of talent in the RP breathe more life to this arguable cliche than George Lucas ever could with limitless CGI budget and technology. So I don't judge, really—I had a character fall to the Dark Side once because he used a mind trick on a banker to get a much needed loan approved for his parents, so I admit my version isn't particularly exciting and moreover my interpretation of the Force differs from the consensus.
(But that doesn't mean I'm trying to stomp the consensus to death like, say, Tea Party supporters).
Jace Varitek
Manager/Administrator from January 2003 to Present
My recent posts here, pre-2009 archives here
"When my information changes, I change my opinion. What do you do, sir?"
—John Maynard Keynes
Furthermore, a dancing Wookiee:
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| Havoc | Date: Monday, 19 Sep 2011, 1:26 PM | Message # 28 |
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Lieutenant general
Group: Users
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| This is the point where I could of posted a picture of a construction worker... but seeing as how Jace is a Bachman supporter and wants to send all gays to the detention camps... I'm just not going to at this time...
Victory to the Forth Reich!
(Please don't kill me!!!!)
Message edited by Havoc - Monday, 19 Sep 2011, 1:26 PM |
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| Karth_DeQora | Date: Monday, 19 Sep 2011, 7:17 PM | Message # 29 |
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Colonel general
Group: Administrators
Messages: 1157
Status: Offline
| ... You kill threads, man.
Stop it.
Man, Myth, Administrative God. Also plays a mean kazoo.
Jace Varitek: In Northern California we just have gangs of vigilante interior decorators.
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