Promises Made, Promises Kept challenge

Xalden

Date: Thursday, 26 Jul 2012, 6:14 PM | Message # 1

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Just a small challenge here from the Promise Made, Promise Kept where the AV-1A Assault Armor, AV-1s Scout Armor, and AV-1c Combat Armor are mentioned as having been given to the "200 Mercenaries" that are being used to attack Xalden's palace. While I understand that Stark owns the company/companies that produce these armors, I still find it difficult that "200" of these suits through and I quote

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Part of the upside of working with Blackfire, at least for the mercenaries, was that somewhere along the line up the chain of command, there was a certain gentleman who just happened to be an arms dealer as well. Things happened, items switched hands, certain shipments were purposely hijacked and this in turn meant that certain items could be found amongst these mercenary bands. AV-1c combat armor, AC-1s scout armor and even, though far more rare, the AV-1a assault armor. Likewise, a good number of the weapons they carried came from certain, more readily-available manufacturers, aside from heavy weapons which were also plentiful.

would be made available to these mercenaries. I also must point out that the AV-1s and AV-1c both allow those equipped with the suits of armor the ability of "flight" as noted in their articles. I also must point out that the AV-1A says and I quote once more.

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Developed some time before the Clone Wars, GTU AV-1A was intended for military use, but its high price precluded widespread adoption. At 50,000 credits for the base model, a single suit was around the cost of a starfighter, and required a near-equivalent level of training to achieve proficiency. Nevertheless, it remained very effective.

This shows that the armor is not widely available, as well as being highly expensive (the cost of a starfighter) it also shows that it would require nearly the same level of training as a starfighter pilot would need to operate a starfighter.

These points alone along with the articles showing how expensive and limited these suits are, I find it difficult that "200" of them could be scraped together to outfit a mercenary army. I also believe that these types of armor, not only because of their limited available, yet also their ability to give the wearer a capability of flying should have been requested first.

Xalden the Black
Lord of Cyborrea

Alyn_Stark

Date: Thursday, 26 Jul 2012, 6:29 PM | Message # 2

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You should note, Carl, that I never stated all the mercenaries were equipped with these suits. Oh, enough for a small strike team or two, but certainly not all the mercenaries. That would just be ridiculous. Furthermore, it's noted that these suits were not purchased, so cost isn't really a factor. That being said as well, I'd imagined the assault armors being in the minority, not the majority, and those particular suits being the only ones that require training in. Granted, if we take into account that third-world terrorists managed to use Microsoft Flight Simulator to learn how to fly planes into the World Trade Center, I don't imagine that, minus a few of the finer points of control and onboard systems perhaps, that certain mercenaries would not be able to pick up the basics of flight, suit operation and weapons management.

Furthermore, why exactly would I need to request the use of equipment that Blackfire more or less can directly tap into, albeit in an illegal manner? That's like saying I'd need to request exactly what kind of blaster rifles the mercenaries are equipped with. That's like me saying that I could challenge the fact that your entire defense system seems to be automated when you never actually requested it to be automated, but I let you run with it. I also let you run with picking, more or less, the landing site for my troops and furthering the distance. On top of that:

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he palace defenses having been risen now, targeting computers within the palace were already at work tracking the various vessels in the system that posed a threat, including the CR90s and IPV-1 that were approaching the planet. The defenses of the palace already on full alert and waiting for any hostile vehicles to come closer.

Your own targeting systems should be just as equally jammed, especially if they are automated seeing as that was a stipulation Jace placed in your request about your own jammers.

Shall we debate this further?

Alyn Stark
Lord of Kinyov
Senior Captain, Retired, Republic Navy
Head of House Malos (former)
Licensed bounty hunter
Majority shareholder, Lorrd Engineering
Owner, Stark Defense Conglomerate
Civilian Medal of Honor recipient
Representative, Lorrd (10 BBY-9 BBY)

Xalden

Date: Thursday, 26 Jul 2012, 8:44 PM | Message # 3

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Using Common Sense here we can point out the exact reason for the challenge that has been brought up on the suits, and the feeling as to why they should be request.

1.) being the fact that two of the styles of suits that you have mentioned provide the wearer an ability to fly (I believe to a 1,000 meter max altitude)

2.) The suits all are expensive, even if you're saying that cost isnt a factor, there would still be questions brought up within the company as to what happened to the suits when they've gone missing. Whom purchased them, was there an order, where did they go, what happened to the shipment, and if you're claiming that they're stealing from it, I believe that an rped out solution followed by a request would look better than essentially saying "Hey my mercs have these rare limited power-armors that we stole from the company."

2a.) Also, you're saying that they have access to them still does not mean they should not be requested. For example, being a member of the Hutt Cartel, Xalden has access to All Terrain Attack Pods and Infantry Support Platforms due in part to the Hutt Cartel having access to them and he could easily get his hands on them, however I would still be required to request such vehicles instead of just being able to say. "I'm part of the Hutt Cartel and have access to these vehicles that is why I have them." Requesting such items brings a balance of sorts to the rp. If we were able to just say "I have this because I can get it" then we'd have ridiculous numbers of vehicles and weapons on both sides that would not make sense. (at least in my belief)

3.) The AV-1A Assault armor alone is saying that it requires near equivalent training to achieve proficiency with the suits, and using common sense here if we follow along with the time limit of three days from the Blackfire contacts going to Njon with their concern on Xalden, I can not see a simple merc (whom has most likely never seen the AV-1A before in his life) learning how to pilot one effectively in under 3 days.

I did not "more or less" pick your landing site. I used common sense in the factoring of the action, which means that with the Palace being built in a mountainous region with the landing pad being the only way to reach the front doors of the palace, it is highly unlikely that you'd find a good landing spot within the area of the palace. Even with moving the landing position back to a "lower mountain range" you still run the risk of not being able to find a landing spot (meaning a flat area, an area that would support the weight of a shuttle) along with the fact that landing any forces inside of a valley within the lower mountain range would not be ideal as it would also be difficult to find a valley. Common sense proves that landing forces in a mountainous area and then marching your forces into said mountains will not be an easy expedition, it is going to be difficult, even more so for forces that do not know the area, or only have a small amount of time to attempt to familiarize themselves with the lay out of the land.

You'll notice in that line that you've quoted I said "were already at work" meaning that the sensors were attempting to lock onto orbiting vessels. Now had I said "already tracking" that would overstep the stipulation put in by Jace. The weapons were attempting to track the vessels in orbit, however once more using common sense here, while they would be unable to pick up vessels in orbit due to the jamming, it would be very difficult to remain hidden from those same weapons when a shuttle does a fly over directly over and in the field of sensors of the palace which would more than likely work better the closer the object is to them, than the further it is from the sensors. It is easier to see a helicopter directly over head and make out features, then it is to see one thousands of miles away and attempt to tell the person next to you what it looks like.

Xalden the Black
Lord of Cyborrea

Message edited by Xalden - Thursday, 26 Jul 2012, 8:51 PM

Alyn_Stark

Date: Friday, 27 Jul 2012, 9:34 AM | Message # 4

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Ok, Carl. Fair enough. I'll agree to pull the AV-1a assault armors from the mercenary forces and state that they have the AV-1c and AV-1s armors instead. These still allow flight (you do have anti-air emplacements and anti-infantry emplacements, so complaining about a flying suit is rather pointless), but they require the much obvious lessening of training, which makes it more fair.

Common sense about the armors themselves was in the very post you quoted. See the terms 'shipments' and 'hijacked.' That solves that little issue there. The removal of the assault armors also counters, by and large, your argument about Xalden having access to AT-AP and the Infantry Support Platforms; both of those are vehicles. The AV-1c and AV-1s are simply types of armor, and certainly not assault armors at that. Combat and scout armor that don't require special training to use and operate.

About your weapons locking on, I quote Jace:

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Looks like you're good to go. APPROVED with the one condition that if we're assuming this communications and sensors array is capable of making the palace 'disappear' to sensors (as I noticed in your request for Valin Rall), that it also in the process jams the palace's own sensors and communications also. I tend to rule out of fairness that with great power comes great drawbacks, too. This is probably a condition I'll insist on for Rall's request also.

Basically, unless you drop that jamming, you can't track crap at all. It's not going to help any sensors outside of visual sensors do that, and I don't think your palace has holographic transmitting eyes all over its surface. If anything, you'd need men to actually man the turrets and utilize a visual targeting sensor in this case.

Added (27 Jul 2012, 9:34 AM)
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Also, I might add, who says a shuttle has to land? It does have a cargo ramp that can be dropped while it uses repulsors to hover. Or ropes and rappels can be used.

Jace_Varitek

Date: Tuesday, 07 Aug 2012, 10:58 PM | Message # 5

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If there's A.) an appropriate number of weapons, walkers, or in this case suits of armor, and by "appropriate" I mean an appropriate number for the particular faction that's using them, and B.) a reasonable explanation of where they came from, I don't see a need for a request in each and every case. (See the Durollia Peacekeepers request). That said, 200 suits of armor isn't appropriate to this Blackfire squad; Adam has said that it's significantly less than 200, and as long as it is, indeed, significantly less than that, then I'm okay with it, though the explanation for them is a bit thin. Bottom line: a handful of these armor suits—something we can agree on, yes?

For the record, though, you can't learn to dogfight in Microsoft Flight Simulator. Basic piloting, sure. But you don't put on one of these suits for a leisurely flight from LAX to O'Hare or LaGuardia to Reagan National. Seems to me, to use these armor suits in combat without getting yourself killed is going to require a lot of training.

Jace Varitek
Manager/Administrator from January 2003 to Present
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