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Lorrd Engineering Request Report
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| Senator_Ordan | Date: Tuesday, 30 Oct 2012, 4:48 PM | Message # 1 |
 Lieutenant general
Group: Users
Messages: 633
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| For fairness' sake (and because I always seem to pan Adam's requests).
So RE his custom ship request I have a few points (IN FAVOUR as well as against).
Re Modular Cruiser:
The DBY-827 turret is 35-50m long...
The Carrack-class has a huge comms array and giant screen. This is probably a design fuckup on the part of the artist of the original but it's been repeated and canonized.
The Survey Module... You've got an option listed for 80 T-47 Airspeeders. Well, as I understand it these are modules that don't eject from the ship and land independently - what you mean is a modular hangar.
The T-47 has an altitude of 175m. I'm not entirely comfortable with a ship 1,100 meters long being able to enter an atmosphere (I know there are canon examples, but they are either ridiculously solid dagger shaped ships - even then rarely designed for atmospheric use and (like the ISD) sustaining damage from atmospheric operation, or rare exotic ships). So I don't see it being plausible a ship of this size would drop down to 175m above a planetary surface. Any high standing buildings or terrain features could be damaged by Engine wash, you'd be inviting ramming or even damage from big indigenous creatures (It's meant to be an "exploration" module and creatures that big do exist in the canon).
Both ships:
Crew is much too low. I know you're not a naval man, but "minimum crew"? What does that mean? The USS Nimitz can probably be operated by a minimum crew of one (at the helm), but you have to question how long that's sustainable. To change speed on a ship you have to signal the engine room (it's often polite to call too), so that's another man, who's navigating? (another man), who's operating the weapons systems? Who's flying the fighters? Who's manning the flight deck? Who's feeding them all? Who's manning the lookout post? Ditto radar, comms, etc. Take the number you think you need to "just man the systems" (don't include repair crews, firefighters, caterers etc for arguments sake), then triple it. For anything more than an 8-12 hour mission (i.e. a sustainable routine not a one-off) you need three watches of eight hours or crewmen will start to snap - then again though, if you need to operate sustainably you do need to factor in all those "non-minimal" crew.
Just those turrets have a comparable size (and likely complexity/as many moving parts) as a SPHA-T. With all hands a SPHA-T will carry 25 men (10 just operating the gun). I realize a scene in episode 3 introduced the idea of a capital ship being flown "by joystick" - which Star Trek had done too.
Try reading (if you like Incredible Cross Sections) their "Man of War", it's about ships of the age of sail but is quite instructive on the principles which govern ship crewing up to today. I get you're trying to say "the ship could be steered around by 10 men" and that's fine but not at all relevant to an operational warship - what you need is an operational compliment listed. Also, ships with small crews are more a merchant navy thing than a navy navy one; small crews make ships easier to board, less well maintained (leading to more breakdowns in battle type situations where you can't afford them) and less well able to man and maintain the numerous subsystems an active warship has. If these were just oil tankers (or the equivalent) I'd be much more okay with smaller crews - a modern medium sized tanker carries 24 crewmen (12 per watch - but you can't have 12 hour watches on military ships so easily) - but certainly aren't out of port 0.75-1.5 years like these ships and are ridiculously easily boarded and hijacked.
My guess for an average operational crew for both (leaning to the lower end) would be:
Breaker-class modular cruiser - 7,000 (more comfortably operated with more and space for up to 14,000) + modules. Based on the Venator of similar length having a crew of 7,200 and the smaller Victory-classes around 6000+. Operable with 10 crew (Helm, Comms, Sensors, Navigation, Weapons officer, 5 Engine room) for basic movement or firing the cannons in a ponderous manner - maximum effective operation with crew this low likely 12-18 hours before they become extremely fatigued - no ability to stand crew down or conduct repairs).
Avarice-class frigate - 300-1000, based on comparable Nebulon B, Lancer, Belarus, etc There are ones with very low crew requirements - things like the Star Galleon, which are tarted up merchantmen, and things which are serious warships around this length which I've tried to use as a guide, and they range from 300 for the numbers operated aboard alliance crewed Nebs to 1000 on a Carrack-class or 1500 for some circa 200m long ships of the Great Sith Wars period (Probably requiring a minimum crew to the Breaker above for basic operations)
More men aboard a ship means (if they're managed well) better running systems, better rested crew (thus more responsive and efficient), better damage control, etc In simple terms on a warship more crew = betterer (where all other things are equal).
Also, modular ships (both canonically and in real life) generally lack the hull integrity of a real warship - I'd be happy if there was a nod to this factor or explanation why this isn't the case here.
So:
Official Grades for this Request from Jamie
Image selection: B- I don't recognize them from anywhere else but I don't think they're awfully "Star Warsy" and the guns are a tad too prominent for my liking.
Plausibility: D- I don't think Lorrd Engineering would find it viable to produce a ship of that scale as a one off for a reasonable price. Even if Stark could pay for the custom design, his companies couldn't afford the upkeep of either - keeping ships at sea is expensive - same goes for space.
Modular Design: C- Nice idea, need to work out questions regarding hull integrity of modules and connections with mothership. Are the modules independently powered (self sufficient modules) or reliant on the Mothership for power, air, etc.
Weapons: C- I'm fine with the Octuple mega cannon actually - but it'd be severely vulnerable and lack hull integrity without shields. I think the Frigate is vastly too over-armed for it's size, using the Nebulon B (considered a decent frigate) as a Barometer.
Speed: D- Again on the Avarice, it's also ludicrously too fast - 60 MGLT is the speed of the "Blockade runner" CR90 and the high powered ISD - both meant to be exceptionally fast ships for their classes - 80 is in the territory of Scoutships, Shuttles and Bombers - 5 MGLT faster than the "Fastest ship in the fleet" as cited by Lando (Millenium Falcon) also 5 MGLT faster (not to mention better armed) than the notoriously efficient and fast DP20 and equal to the Y-Wing.
General design: C- Good to see you experimenting with new ideas for warships but still think you're getting the wrong end of the stick in some respects. It shouldn't be able to outpace most fighters inside an atmosphere either. The Breaker is too fast as well (50 MGLT should be around average Corvette territory I feel), not pondering bulk modular cruiser level. The Breaker-class is not merchantable without the Pacification module (the most expensive I assume) as standard - Noone is going to buy a "hospital ship" or "exploration ship" of this scale while specialized models exist cheaper and do the job better - with the pacification module it's an Amphibious assault ship which might get looked at by customers in need of one.
Approvable? Yes (with caveats) if the ships are slowed down, more sensibly crewed and armed; even with this, they should remain a Premium-end design costing multiple times the cost of equivalent vessels (To write it in big red letters: LORRD ENGINEERING WILL MAKE A SUBSTANTIAL LOSS ON BUILDING THESE SHIPS). Why?
They're going to end up (if you want them to be anywhere near the original stats) Premium ships - I realize they're made essentially -for- Alyn Stark, but noone else other than an egotistical eccentric with a self confidence problem will buy them.
Noone will buy them, here's why:
The Imperial Navy: Both too expensive, Breaker-class not a fit ship of the Line, Avarice an over-equipped Frigate with too high a price tag.
Imperial Sector Navies: Neither ship particularly use of funds, ditto above.
Planetary Defense Forces (Rim) - Lorrd Engineering's "Natural customers" (as it were): I don't think many Outer Rim Worlds could afford to keep a Breaker-class on the books as it's not a proper warship and to own and maintain all the Separate modules, their compliments and to have the equipment to change them out is simply more expensive than having multiple ships, each specializing in one of the roles the Breaker tries to fill (it's a Jack of all trades, master of none). The Avarice will be too expensive - why have an Avarice when you can buy three Arquitens-class for the same price?
Planetary Defense Forces (Core): More likely to be able to afford this Breaker-class type of vessel. It's unlikely they'd buy a "Pacification Module" variant since a surplus Acclamator would be cheaper, and generally do more pacifying than this ship. I could see Rich Core Systems like Chandrila who are banned from having a formal Navy buying one of these (in like the Hospital variant) to disguise their ownership of a quasi-warship and so maintain something under their control.
Private Companies: No private company would buy either ship.
Individuals: Extremely extravagant and egotistical individuals might buy an Avarice-class, perhaps. I could see a small amount of interest from maybe Hutts? Seems dubious though as Jabba never operated anything much heavier than a Corvette. Among Hutts I don't think these would be popular though - why buy one of these when you can operate many Maurauders for the same price. The Breaker-class is beyond the purse of most individuals to run or buy for reasons of personal extravagance. Bear in mind the Emperor's private ship was a C-3 Liner (warships aren't practical for cruising around in and consume hypermatter - not cheap - by the hundreds or thousands of tons a second). For Private Individuals - Why not put concealed weapons aboard a liner and a small hangar for bodyguard/special forces teams to launch from).
How to make them sell:
Make the Frigate extremely slow: Reduces price, decreases size of reactor needed (makes hull stronger) and stops the power systems needing to be stretching the boundaries of possibility with tech of this period. It'd be a capable and afford able Defense Monitor or Bombardment ship.
Make the Frigate have less guns: Again, less sophisticated power management systems needed, less reactor size needed, lower cost.
Make the Breaker as standard a Hospital-ship (you might sell some Hospital ships), have one built specially modified for Alyn Stark with the other "module": Increases sales for Lorrd Engineering, good PR, makes the project cheaper for Lorrd Engineering (but more expensive for Alyn Stark). Removes need to make the ship modular and so improves hull integrity.Added (30 Oct 2012, 4:48 PM)
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A private company or individual owning either is inviting Planetary Defense Committee seizure of the vessel too. Worth mentioning that this is the case with this new act passed. It'd be very easy to argue either ship lacked a legitimate Civilian use (except a modular ship fitted out with something but the pacification module).
Senator Hubert Ordan
__________________________
Senator of the Azure Sector
Foreign Minister of Anaxes
Captain-General of the Azure Interest Protection Squadron
Deputy Chairman of the Ethics Committee
Worshipful Master of the Most Loyal and Honourable Company of Blockadeers
Archtreasurer of the Vault of Pols Anaxes
Autocrat of Selgon
Owner of Azure Durasteel
Systems Admiral (Ret)
Order of the Canted Circle
Message edited by Senator_Ordan - Tuesday, 30 Oct 2012, 4:35 PM |
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| Alyn_Stark | Date: Tuesday, 30 Oct 2012, 10:54 PM | Message # 2 |
 Generalissimo
Group: Users
Messages: 1359
Status: Offline
| A few points to keep in mind. Firstly, the Avarice-class was based, loosely, off of the Carrack-class with a few thoughts and points of other vessels thrown in. The Breaker-class was based (albeit a bit more heavily) off the idea of the Modular Taskforce Cruiser, which happens to be 1,150 meters and capable of atmospheric flight. Also, the Breaker is nine hundred meters.
When I refer to 'minimum crew' I am referring to the very base amount where the ship can be operated in a manner to be able to fly it from place to place, not the minimum crew required to be able to man all stations effectively.
For the rest of the points and arguments, I'll have those up later. However, Lorrd Engineering won't take a loss on these designs. I already thought this through.
Alyn Stark
Lord of Kinyov
Senior Captain, Retired, Republic Navy
Head of House Malos (former)
Licensed bounty hunter
Majority shareholder, Lorrd Engineering
Owner, Stark Defense Conglomerate
Civilian Medal of Honor recipient
Representative, Lorrd (10 BBY-9 BBY)
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| Bernard_Oriel | Date: Tuesday, 30 Oct 2012, 11:06 PM | Message # 3 |
 Colonel general
Group: Users
Messages: 803
Status: Offline
| Don't misconstrue me - I'm not saying these ships couldn't happen by any means. An Imperial-class can operate in an atmosphere, but suffers damage in doing so.
Beware Dark Empire as a source - it's about the most mishandled pre-prequels Star Wars (the more egregious Ewok/Droids ones going unmentioned). The Sourcebook for Dark Empire listed ridiculous starship prices that aren't at all in line with the rest of the canon - The Modular taskforce cruiser can be had for the price of one Corellian CR90 Corvette..
It's not a source I'd lean on too heavily when it comes to credibility. It also seems possible (from the context) that that isn't the construction price either, just the price the Empire was charged (perhaps as a loss leader for more work).
Minimum crew is actually fine - Just be good to see you list average and max crews too. Not beating up on the ideas themselves - just think things could merit from a little reexamination and overhaul if you think there's some merit to my ideas. Note though, as Rothana, I've released a range of theoretical designs that would be merchantable to Outer Rim Worlds - a market you really should be able to carve a corner out of.
Bernard Oriel
Senator for the Planet of Vjun
1st Earl Malreaux (Second Creation)
Vjun Delegation to the Imperial Senate
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| Alyn_Stark | Date: Tuesday, 30 Oct 2012, 11:17 PM | Message # 4 |
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Generalissimo
Group: Users
Messages: 1359
Status: Offline
| These ships are meant for sale on a number of sources, not just the Outer Rim. Plus, there's no reason the Empire wouldn't actually purchase the Breaker-class with certain modules as a support ship.
Alyn Stark
Lord of Kinyov
Senior Captain, Retired, Republic Navy
Head of House Malos (former)
Licensed bounty hunter
Majority shareholder, Lorrd Engineering
Owner, Stark Defense Conglomerate
Civilian Medal of Honor recipient
Representative, Lorrd (10 BBY-9 BBY)
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