The Act Restricting the Power of Planetary Monarchs
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Crin_Star | Date: Monday, 22 Nov 2010, 8:59 PM | Message # 31 |
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| "I apologize Grand Vizier. Now as to Senator Veritas, I would like to say that I highly doubt Senator Oriel meant to cast any such aspirations against his majesty, and was simply speaking about planetary governments. But I can not speak for him.
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Bernard_Oriel | Date: Monday, 22 Nov 2010, 9:10 PM | Message # 32 |
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| I am firmly in favour of Imperial Rule in the Galaxy, as the best and most efficient system out there. However, it is wrong to conflate the title of Emperor with the assumption that he is a feudal officer, instead he is the ruler and sovereign of a modern and progressive state; in contrast to most monarchs which are the relics of a bygone age. The Emperor was elected by the Senate to rule the Galaxy. He has legitimacy by virtue of this that no Unelected monarch has. There is a difference between "Rex" (King) and "Imperator" (Emperor) in that the Emperor is an appointed position, not one where he inherited the title through a patrilineal line not based on merit. It is a simple fact that autocratic rule is a necessity in order to maintain a safe and stable Empire and secure the people, as such the Emperor is the best individual to govern the galaxy in a manner not mired with bureaucracy. Equally, the Emperor has proven himself the best individual for the job of galactic governance through his excellent handling of the clone wars and streamlining of all branches of Government.
Bernard Oriel Senator for the Planet of Vjun 1st Earl Malreaux (Second Creation) Vjun Delegation to the Imperial Senate
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Titus_Veritas | Date: Monday, 22 Nov 2010, 9:20 PM | Message # 33 |
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| An interesting moment of defense from Senator Star, it seems I was right about maturity catching on. Thank you, Senator Oriel, I'm glad to hear your position on that matter, finally. Now, you have admitted to a difference regarding directly elected monarchs, i.e. Naboo, and proposed an amendment to your legislation regarding this fact. What of monarchs that, like our Emperor, are ultimately chosen by their legislature?
Viceroy Titus Veritas, House Veritas Consul of the House of Lords
Former Senator of Deralia and the Tammuz Sector (50 BBY - 30 BBY, 18 BBY - 10 BBY) Former Chairman of the Imperial Senate Defense Committee (18 BBY - 10 BBY)
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Bernard_Oriel | Date: Monday, 22 Nov 2010, 9:32 PM | Message # 34 |
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| The Emperor is an elected and benevolent autocrat, not a monarch in the sense of this bill, as I stated before. If a planetary monarch is elected by a legislature, and candidates are shortlisted for such a position on their own merits and by a popular vote, then I'd not oppose a legislatively appointed Planetary Monarch.
Bernard Oriel Senator for the Planet of Vjun 1st Earl Malreaux (Second Creation) Vjun Delegation to the Imperial Senate
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Titus_Veritas | Date: Monday, 22 Nov 2010, 10:39 PM | Message # 35 |
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| If in the sense of this bill, the Emperor is an autocrat, as you say, then wouldn't this also make any King, Queen, Emperor, Empress, Regent, etc. on the local level, who is subject to some form of vote or selection, which included merits in its considerations, (direct election or not) also an autocrat and thus immune to the stipulations of this bill? This is merely myself attempting to gain clarification on the matter of your separation of monarch and autocrat.
Viceroy Titus Veritas, House Veritas Consul of the House of Lords
Former Senator of Deralia and the Tammuz Sector (50 BBY - 30 BBY, 18 BBY - 10 BBY) Former Chairman of the Imperial Senate Defense Committee (18 BBY - 10 BBY)
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Bernard_Oriel | Date: Monday, 22 Nov 2010, 11:02 PM | Message # 36 |
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| Senator Veritas, we are time wasting. Please present your questions all at once. The Emperor: Democratically appointed autocrat deriving authority from the Senate and People of the Empire. A Monarch (for the purpose of this bill): is a planetary ruler or head of state (in whom is often vested notional planetary sovereignty) who's source of authority stems from accident of birth or acclaim by an unrepresentative elite group, a monarch may have considerable power but cannot be an autocrat as this implies absolute power which is only vested in the Emperor himself. As you can see they are quite distinct positions. While a monarch may or may not also have a powerful role under present laws, the galaxy has room for only one Sovereign, that is the Emperor. An elected planetary ruler rules only by the consent of the Emperor, and it is inappropriate they should ape his Imperial Majesty by assuming an royal titles unless directly approved by his majesty, this should apply especially to absolute rulers. No leader, unless he or she is a pure figurehead, should bear a monarchical title unless granted it by the Empire. Certainly no one should ever attempt to bear a title such as "Emperor" without direct permission from his majesty.
Bernard Oriel Senator for the Planet of Vjun 1st Earl Malreaux (Second Creation) Vjun Delegation to the Imperial Senate
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Titus_Veritas | Date: Monday, 22 Nov 2010, 11:09 PM | Message # 37 |
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| Senator Oriel, while this may seem like time wasting to you, I am merely exploring this legislation and ensuring that as much information can be obtained upon the content of this bill and its meanings so that we can be sure what exactly we are passing. Also, if you would not skip questions, concerns, or points that have been raised against you, I would be asking my questions in a condensed manner. Now... If this legislation is to be applied to a monarchs, should it also be applied to nobles? Nobility is a typical aspect of monarchies, and if we are to discourage a monarchy style of government, shouldn't the enablers of the monarchy be eliminated too?
Viceroy Titus Veritas, House Veritas Consul of the House of Lords
Former Senator of Deralia and the Tammuz Sector (50 BBY - 30 BBY, 18 BBY - 10 BBY) Former Chairman of the Imperial Senate Defense Committee (18 BBY - 10 BBY)
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Bernard_Oriel | Date: Monday, 22 Nov 2010, 11:51 PM | Message # 38 |
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| No, nobilities are a completely different matter, unless they enable a monarchy. I would again cite Vjun as an example, we have never seen the need for Kings or Royalty, and we are ruled by a Parliament comprising the best in society. Some of these are, yes, nobles, but have been elected as others would be. The Vjun nobility has never suffered Kings. Equally, in many other societies members of the nobility play an important societal role. Deralia, for example, disestablished it's monarchy some time ago, but few in it's nobility have sought to enable a new king. If nobles do seek to usurp the Emperor's sovereignty, they should be punished as any other would be. I have no issues with titles being held, only when powers are held that are in conflict with the basic principles of the Empire.
Bernard Oriel Senator for the Planet of Vjun 1st Earl Malreaux (Second Creation) Vjun Delegation to the Imperial Senate
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Exar_Ray | Date: Tuesday, 23 Nov 2010, 8:45 AM | Message # 39 |
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| If I may say, this entire argument is a waste of time. We all know very well that the Emperor holds the highest level of authority here in the galaxy. Anyone whom would dare think otherwise is a fool and deserves to be placed in a dungeon. Planetary kings and queens are elected for that planet alone, and it is in their right to continue their rule, as long as they do the right things for their people, and the right thing for the Empire. I vote against this motion.
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RonsardEntrente | Date: Tuesday, 23 Nov 2010, 12:58 PM | Message # 40 |
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| While Commenor once had a monarchy of its own, it has ceased to exist in practice for centuries. Although Commenor still styles itself as a constitutional monarchy, no one has sat on the throne for many years. The nobility on Commenor has also died out, most recently a cabal of nobles sided with the Separatists in the Clone Wars and were banished forever from the planet. The remaining nobles have sold their titles back to the state as a sign of planetary unification and loyalty to the planetary government. Commenor feels this bill would be in the best interests of the Empire as a whole, solidifying the popular will and rooting out any potential claimants to Emperor Palpatine's throne. This bill is a reminder that the Emperor's power derives not from birth, but from merit and the consensus of the Senate. There are also some positive revenue-making aspects of this bill that are favorable, namely, the confiscation of excessive kingly accouterments for the benefit of the Imperial treasury. Commenor votes in favor of this act.
Ronsard Entrente Senator of Commenor Ranking Member, Commerce Committee
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Titus_Veritas | Date: Tuesday, 23 Nov 2010, 8:25 PM | Message # 41 |
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| Concerning nobility however, I will cite some of the points of your argument against monarchy. Monarchy contradicts democracy In a unelected, strictly hereditary monarchy, yes... it indeed does. However, so does the noble system. Nobles are NOT selected by the people, thus are not democratic. A monarchy demands deference A valid point, however so does the noble system in the same way. Monarchs are not impartial, and lack accountability In some governments, yes. However, nobles also have the same quality. Monarchy makes a world appear 'backwards' In some circles, perhaps. However, the nobility is in the same category. It is archaic, as old as the monarchy itself in some instances, and it is, usually, stuck in its rigid and conservative place. My point is, which, yes, I have been long-winded about, is that a similar argument could be made against the nobility of several worlds. I would almost go as far as to challenge the concept of an elected nobility, as it defies the idea of the system. Nobility is a state-privileged, and usually hereditary, status. Not an elected one. I do not mean to put Vjun on trial here, and I personally believe it is within the scope of each world to govern itself, but for all this parading of democracy you do, Senator Oriel, you seem to be part of one of the most undemocratic governments in the Empire. There is more democracy in action on worlds like Naboo, Garos IV, Anobis, and Deralia, targets of this bill, than on Vjun. There also seems to be more progression on countless other worlds than on Vjun. Practice what you preach Senator, and right now, concerning matters of government, I do not feel Vjun has a high level of standing on this, especially with your platform and reasoning. If you want change, Senator, lead by example, not by mere rhetoric. To me, from a legal standpoint, this bill is unable to stand up. In general, despite any views for or against, monarchies do not present a clear and present danger to the Empire and the Emperor's rule. A monarch disobeying direct Imperial rule, as was the case on Naboo a couple of years ago, is. I feel that this is something that should be handled in a case by case basis, and only on the authority of the Emperor. It is the way we have handled monarchies thus far, and it has worked thus far, and there is no reason to change that at this time. Thus, I must vote Against this legislation.
Viceroy Titus Veritas, House Veritas Consul of the House of Lords
Former Senator of Deralia and the Tammuz Sector (50 BBY - 30 BBY, 18 BBY - 10 BBY) Former Chairman of the Imperial Senate Defense Committee (18 BBY - 10 BBY)
Message edited by TitusVeritas - Tuesday, 23 Nov 2010, 8:25 PM |
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Senator_Cambrist | Date: Tuesday, 23 Nov 2010, 10:44 PM | Message # 42 |
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| No disrespect, Senator Veritas, but what a bunch of priggish prat. First of all, your assumption about "democracy," that it is something that is universally desirable, is imperious of you. There are many worlds that do not hold to this—to say nothing of alien worlds like Neimoidia, there are many human societies, also. Brentaal, for instance, has a celebrated nobility that is as old as the Core, that was governing Brentaal while your planet was populated by the monstrosities you call your "ancestors." I am a product of a noble house, Senator, and I take strong exception to your words. To be clear, Brentaal is not without democracy; it is governed by noble houses, yes, but the houses put forth candidates who are voted upon. As it happens, Senator, these candidates—these nobles—are groomed for public service from a young age. They are well educated in civics, commerce, and in my case, history, philosophy, sentientology, linguistics, and other fields. This is why Brentaal is governed efficiently, Senator Veritas; its leaders are not mongrels from the street. There are advantages to having a government that is not susceptible to public hysteria, and there is no greater example of this than the Clone Wars. When a brigand roused the people of Brentaal to secession, the noble houses, and House Cambrist in particular, were firmly opposed to this. Your world has its own lessons to learn from the war too, Senator Veritas. Do not forget that there was a movement on your world to install a secessionist king on the throne, and that this movement was resisted by an undemocratic "war council" not unlike Brentaal's noble houses. Surely, Senator, you are proud of this? As well you should be. I will not give the points that you raise more time than they deserve, but having dispensed with your first point, I will proceed, briefly, to your second. Brentaal does not demand deference to its nobility. I invite you to visit a trade hall during one of our public meetings, and witness the, shall we say, loud exchange of views that takes place there. You will not leave one of these meetings with the false belief that the people are made to defer to the nobility—certainly no more than people of wealth and prestige are deferred to on any world. Your third point, regarding accountability; on Brentaal, the noble houses tend to be in competition with one another, and watch each other very, very closely. I assure you, there is very little allowance for failure, and this is good for Brentaal and its people. As for whether nobility makes a world appear "backward," I would invite you to compare the esteem with which Brentaal is regarded to that of Deralia. My point, I believe, is made. It is true that I refer much to Brentaal, but do not dismiss it as "an exception." Where there is one exception, Senator, there are more—but were there only one, it would still refute the points that you've raised. I stand by many of Senator Oriel's characterizations of planetary monarchies, but for you to apply them to nobility is, well, very ignoble of you. And wrong.
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Titus_Veritas | Date: Tuesday, 23 Nov 2010, 11:05 PM | Message # 43 |
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| It appears my words have been misinterpreted, and for that I apologize Senator Cambrist. I realize I did not make my point as clear as I should have... I am in feverant support of the nobility, I am a noble myself. Like Brentaal, our nobles are well educated, and held to a higher standard due to their standing. I am proud of my world and its efforts in the Clone Wars, in resisting the Separatists at home and serving the Republic abroad. I am proud of our nobility AND our monarchy, even if it is currently not present in our government. My point was, that should this bill pass and the various monarchies throughout the galaxy be restricted and forced out of existence in the end, the next target would be the nobility. Neither will I allow, for I believe that these two systems, when applied appropriately, as Brentaal and Deralia have, improve and better the people. A world like Vjun, where nobles are elected, of all things, rather than earning their status as such is appalling, and I will not allow for Vjun's backward and contradictory ways to be forced upon the rest of the galaxy, which for rare exceptions, have continued to be a part of the galactic community in a positive way. Seriously, Senator Cambrist, from one noble to another... are you going to agree with the sentiment of a man who was probably elected into nobility? A man who did nothing to earn his titles and positions, unlike you and I? A man who espouses dissenting terms like "democracy" and "progress" in every bill he brings about, yet enjoys and reaps the benefits of nobility and autocracy while speaking out against them? A man so contradictory towards himself, his record, his rhetoric, and his homeworld? After defending the greatness of your government, so opposing to Senator Oriel's ideals and rhetoric, you are going to agree with this man, sir?
Viceroy Titus Veritas, House Veritas Consul of the House of Lords
Former Senator of Deralia and the Tammuz Sector (50 BBY - 30 BBY, 18 BBY - 10 BBY) Former Chairman of the Imperial Senate Defense Committee (18 BBY - 10 BBY)
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Bernard_Oriel | Date: Tuesday, 23 Nov 2010, 11:51 PM | Message # 44 |
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| Senator Veritas, Id like to thank you for your salvo of un called for attacks upon myself. On Vjun nobles inherit their titles from Their predecessors, or may be granted them by the Vjunite Government, similarly to the situation on nearly all worlds with nobilities. The nobles on Vjun do hold a large measure of influence and wealth, however this is by no means exclusively held by the nobility. Nobles hold very little power, if any, by simple virtue of their titles and their wealth and abilities have a far larger role on determining their position within Vjun society. My aide for example is a member of the Nobility, one Charles Ulysses Newton Thomas, Baron of Astarac, Semmeu, Telaria, Allerio, Rigeauberg and Dunkeep.. But he has no tenants, has sold most of the land in his fiefs and while he is the possessor of grand titles he has only been able to find gainful e,ployment by becoming an exceptionally skilled lawyer, rather than being able to live off his rents. Almost half the parliament comes from the hearty and Yale freemen of Vjun, and many senior freemen are far more wealthy than most nobles. The Parliament is, yes, elected by those who are eligible to do so. I do not see a problem with an elected legislature? One cannot be directly elected into the nobility in some hideous "vote yourself rich" scheme as Senator Veritas implies.
Bernard Oriel Senator for the Planet of Vjun 1st Earl Malreaux (Second Creation) Vjun Delegation to the Imperial Senate
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Tremaine_Fowlkes | Date: Friday, 26 Nov 2010, 10:07 AM | Message # 45 |
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| For reasons Senator Vanden had stated, I must vote against.
Tremaine Fowlkes Senator of Telos IV
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