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The Self Defense Bill
Eli_FitzgeraldDate: Thursday, 05 May 2011, 7:02 PM | Message # 16
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I appreciate your vote, Senator Fowlkes. It's good to see that we're of like mind on this issue. Senator Oswaldt, though, is not right. He's wrong, and the fact that he is wrong should come as no surprise to anyone. The bill doesn't say that the Empire can't defend a world that is of strategic importance, etc. It says that, even so, that world has a right to defend itself, too. I don't think this is unreasonable, and it's definitely not as radical as Senator Oswaldt says it is. A vote in support of the right of a world to defend itself is not a vote for a confederacy, or for secession. I think this is obvious to us all, except the Senator of Eriadu and apparently the Senator of Coruscant, too.

I say what I said before, and what Senator Fowlkes said also, that the Imperial starfleet can't be everywhere and we shouldn't expect it to be, either. It's because I don't presume to tell the Empire how to keep us safe that I don't demand that it spend its time defending Ralltiir when Ralltiir is capable of defending itself. As far as I'm concerned, it's Senator Oswaldt and Senator North, especially, who are telling the Empire "how it can or [can't] keep us safe." With dozens, maybe hundreds of Imperial ships defending Eriadu and Coruscant, it's that much more important that the rest of us are able to defend ourselves when Imperial ships aren't able to, or aren't able to in a timely manner.

To dispose of Senator Oswaldt's hypothetical about a world in rebellion, I ask him, if a world is in rebellion against the Empire is it really going to care about any Imperial laws? Obviously, neither the world in rebellion or the Empire is going to consider that world subject to or entitled to Imperial laws or Imperial privileges and rights.


Eli Fitzgerald
Senator of Ralltiir (10 BBY—Present)

"I was elected to do some flamethrowing in the Senate. To a light a fire under those Senators and make it hot for them."


Message edited by Eli_Fitzgerald - Thursday, 05 May 2011, 7:06 PM
 
Titus_VeritasDate: Thursday, 05 May 2011, 8:42 PM | Message # 17
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Since I seem to be the voice of reason of the opposition, let me refine the critique of this legislation in better terms that my colleagues are unable to.

I would like to start by saying I agree, mostly, to Article I. However, the clause requiring consent to revoke this right can be problematic. A insurgent world, upon being rightfully brought back into the Empire, should not be able to bear arms immediatly. Nor should a world with a history of repeatedly failing as a state. Failed states are simply to risky to have armed. Under this portion of the law, the Empire would simply be too constrained by politics and bureaucracy to effectively manage any insurrectionist movement on its own worlds.

Article II, I can completely agree with and would support the passage of. On the opposite end of the spectrum is Article III... I simply can not support this measure. Garrisoning would become such an arduous task, we might as well eliminate the existence of the Army; which will never happen. It, again, adds too much of politics and bureaucracy to allow the Empire to manage it's dominion effectively.

Yes, Senator Fitzgerald, there is indeed financial interest here. However, not much more than already passed legislation. If anything, however, despite your touting of financial gain, there is the possibility of high financial loss due to the increased bureaucracy and man power being added and made necessary for simple tasks of defense. I would have to sit down with some of my staff to figure out solid numbers, but just thinking of the Empire having to study every non-combat deployment to its worlds and come up with alternatives every time makes me shudder at how defense expenses would explode.

Senator Fitzgerald, the reasons are not self-evident. The problem here is, you are moving the Empire backwards and into the ineffectiveness of the Republic with this legislation. Something regarding rights and self-defense are always going to be popular, among politicians and the people. However, we need to be careful in what popular movements we push through. Some may seem well intentioned, and some like this legislation actually are, but one must look deeper into the problem at hand. You grandstand Chandrila, but they are currently in the works of rebuilding their defense forces under the guidance of the Defense Committee. They have proven themselves to the Empire, and thus have been rewarded with the ability of self-defense following their punishment of having the Empire take it over.

Senator Fitzgerald, I do not want to discourage you, as you do seem aimed in the right direction. It is merely... your legislation here requires refinement in order to benefit the Empire. Refinement I don't think you're willing to go through, judging from your defense of the bill.


Viceroy Titus Veritas, House Veritas
Consul of the House of Lords

Former Senator of Deralia and the Tammuz Sector (50 BBY - 30 BBY, 18 BBY - 10 BBY)
Former Chairman of the Imperial Senate Defense Committee (18 BBY - 10 BBY)
 
Eli_FitzgeraldDate: Friday, 06 May 2011, 9:44 PM | Message # 18
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Rest assured, Senator, I am not discouraged and I won't be, ever. I am willing to compromise if need be, but there's no compromising with Senators who say the right of a world to defend itself is some kind of separatist conspiracy. You are indeed a lonely voice of reason, Senator, and I do understand your concerns. I don't agree with your concerns, but I understand them. No one opposes bureaucracy more than me, and I wouldn't propose Article III if I thought it would become a bureaucratic nightmare, and I still don't think it will. Remember that a world can waive Article III if it wants to, and I think most worlds will be grateful for Imperial support and will waive Article III. And I don't doubt that the Empire has means of persuasion it will use to convince many reluctant worlds to do so, too. So the number of cases we're looking at is going to be rather small, I think.

Consider that small number of cases, though. These would be cases in which an Imperial world feels strongly—perhaps very strongly—that it can defend itself, or that it would be to its benefit to defend itself, and that it could save the Empire the trouble of doing so. If an Imperial world does feel this strongly, do we really want to ignore it? Is it not worth some consideration? Surely ignoring a planet's concerns is not a good start to an Imperial deployment on that planet. As the Senator from Druckenwell might say, it would "tend to breed mistrust and lose productivity and loyalty."

I don't think I was "grandstanding" Chandrila, but the same could be said for Deralia, couldn't it? As I understand it, the people of Deralia are chafing under an Imperial governor who is ignoring their wishes, traditions, etc. Am I wrong?


Eli Fitzgerald
Senator of Ralltiir (10 BBY—Present)

"I was elected to do some flamethrowing in the Senate. To a light a fire under those Senators and make it hot for them."


Message edited by Eli_Fitzgerald - Friday, 06 May 2011, 9:45 PM
 
LomenRyuunDate: Sunday, 08 May 2011, 5:57 AM | Message # 19
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Druckenwell has changed its vote at this point. In favor.

Lomen Ryuun
Senator, Doldur Sector
Senator, Druckenwell
Representative, Monor II (10 BBY - 9 BBY)
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Sate_PestageDate: Sunday, 08 May 2011, 8:16 PM | Message # 20
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I am disappointed to see the Senator from Druckenwell reverse himself on this measure. For the record, the chair is opposed to it, as it is opposed to any measure that would diminish the ability (or indeed, the inclination) of the Empire to defend its planets. I hope this is clearly understood by the Senators who are supporting this measure on behalf of their planets. Especially Ralltiir. Also, the Senator from Deralia will be aware that, while the chair has no opinion on the possibility of reconstituting Chandrila's defense forces, it does respect the decision that Moff Seerdon has made to combine those forces with his, under his command. The chair respects and supports this decision, and considers it a fine example of a case in which the defense of a world is delegated to the Empire for the good of both.

With respect to the point that has been raised about a world in rebellion, the Senator from Ralltiir is far too quick to dismiss it. But despite my opposition to the bill, I'm willing to help the Senator—if he's actually willing to compromise, that is. Might the phrase "a right of Imperial worlds," in Article I, be amended to "a right of Imperial worlds in good standing"? Criminals and other delinquents forfeit their rights, after all. Should a delinquent planet be any different? What is your opinion on this, Senator Veritas?


Sate Pestage
Grand Vizier of the Empire
Assistant to Emperor Palpatine
Chair of the Imperial Senate
 
Titus_VeritasDate: Sunday, 08 May 2011, 9:00 PM | Message # 21
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I believe I should clarify, Grand Vizier, that the Committee's work with Senator Thanatos and her constituency is indeed ultimately subject to the approval of Moff Seerdon. And as always, the Throne has the ultimate and final authority on the matter, as well. Concerning the Chair's proposed amendment, I would support such a compromise, if Senator Fitzgerald is willing. I am still concerned though, about Article III and it's possible interference with garrisoning worlds. And to Senator Fitzgerald, you are indeed correct about my world's position, but I am not using it as a political limmie ball, sir.

Viceroy Titus Veritas, House Veritas
Consul of the House of Lords

Former Senator of Deralia and the Tammuz Sector (50 BBY - 30 BBY, 18 BBY - 10 BBY)
Former Chairman of the Imperial Senate Defense Committee (18 BBY - 10 BBY)
 
Eli_FitzgeraldDate: Monday, 09 May 2011, 4:19 PM | Message # 22
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I'm sorry if I'm speaking in haste, Senator Veritas, but I don't think that standing up for your people is just a game, and I'm sure there are Deralians who would agree with me if they were alive today, and had a voice. And with respect, Grand Vizier, I'm not sure that I like the implication that the Empire might not be "inclined" to defend a world as a consequence of how its Senator votes on this measure. I think this is an extraordinary thing to say, and if the Defense Committee has any authority at all, surely its chairman should not be pleased with this implication either.

But I will include your amendment if I must, because there may come a time and I think there will come a time when a world acts according to what it understands to be its self defense and what the Empire perceives to be in "rebellion" or "secession." Since I think it's apparent the Empire would no longer consider that world to be "in good standing" anyway, I suppose there's no harm in amending the bill accordingly. I'll do so now.


Eli Fitzgerald
Senator of Ralltiir (10 BBY—Present)

"I was elected to do some flamethrowing in the Senate. To a light a fire under those Senators and make it hot for them."
 
Sate_PestageDate: Monday, 09 May 2011, 5:45 PM | Message # 23
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I'm sure the Senator will be relieved to know that he is under no obligation to like what I say. However, he is obligated to address the chair and his colleagues in a respectful manner, and his manner of address to the Senator from Deralia, his derision of the governor of Deralia, and his insinuations about myself and my words are out of line and out of order. Senator Fitzgerald is warned, and Senator Veritas, do not feel as if you are compelled to respond to his taunts. Unparliamentary conduct should not be dignified in this chamber.

With that said, Senator Fitzgerald, it is good of you to see reason—however reluctantly you have done so—and include the amendment I suggested. However, the chair remains opposed to the measure. To make it more palatable to the chair and the Senate, may I suggest another amendment? You will agree, I'm sure, that "non-covert" conditions should be included beside "non-combat" conditions and "non-crisis" conditions in Article III of your measure? The Empire cannot reasonably be expected to compose a study that "declares" it intends to conduct covert operations, prior to doing so.


Sate Pestage
Grand Vizier of the Empire
Assistant to Emperor Palpatine
Chair of the Imperial Senate
 
Eli_FitzgeraldDate: Monday, 09 May 2011, 10:19 PM | Message # 24
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Quote (Sate_Pestage)
may I suggest another amendment?

Apparently. And yes, the amendment is reasonable and so am I. Consider it amended. I do request, however, if the Grand Vizier has any more amendments to suggest, that he suggest them now, all at once, rather than one at a time. I'm finding this rather tiresome.


Eli Fitzgerald
Senator of Ralltiir (10 BBY—Present)

"I was elected to do some flamethrowing in the Senate. To a light a fire under those Senators and make it hot for them."
 
Sate_PestageDate: Tuesday, 10 May 2011, 10:37 PM | Message # 25
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The chair has no further amendments to suggest. However, the chair remains opposed to your bill and encourages Senators to oppose it as well.

Sate Pestage
Grand Vizier of the Empire
Assistant to Emperor Palpatine
Chair of the Imperial Senate
 
Toben-DomonDate: Thursday, 12 May 2011, 8:41 AM | Message # 26
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It seems the Senate has no further remarks, Chairman. I move that this be called to a close.

Toben Domon
Senator, Sluis Van
 
Eli_FitzgeraldDate: Sunday, 22 May 2011, 8:00 PM | Message # 27
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I also move that the vote be closed.

Eli Fitzgerald
Senator of Ralltiir (10 BBY—Present)

"I was elected to do some flamethrowing in the Senate. To a light a fire under those Senators and make it hot for them."
 
Senator_OrdanDate: Sunday, 22 May 2011, 8:09 PM | Message # 28
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I motion that debate remains open.

Senator Fitzgerald.

Your neckline on your suit is rather too low for a male item of clothing in my opinion, and your necktie is tied in a most abominable fashion. I must suggest you have your servants flogged for their disgusting effort in dressing yourself, and also can suggest you a decent tailor.

Now I have completed my comments directed at your appearance, I will move on to the contents of your legislation. I oppose it on two grounds, firstly in Article II it acts to attempt to constrain the Sovereign power. I would remind the Senator that the Emperor is Sovereign, and we are not, we are simply here to legislate to aid the day to day running of his domain. As such I cannot support a motion which is essentially unconstitutional (in that it acts to constrain the power of the Sovereign) and attempts to constrain this chamber in future.

Furthemore, the overall purpose of this bill is to reduce the efficiency of the Imperial Military in quashing insurrection. This is a vote to enable rebel regimes and disallow the Imperial Military from acting in the defense of the Emperor's domain. Thus I vote No, No, No a thousand Times No. My vote is cast decisively against this act.


Senator Hubert Ordan
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Bernard_OrielDate: Sunday, 22 May 2011, 8:18 PM | Message # 29
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*Oriel appeared in his customary Vjunite Tunic*

May I be the first to offer you a Vjunite Tunic (free of charge) in order that the Senator from Ralltiir appears to be more presentable to this chamber.

Now, moving on to the bill itself. I nominate to close voting and vote against this motion for its attempts to constrain Imperial power in such a wide ranging way. I would not oppose allowing an authority to conduct a non-binding consultation if it wishes. I must also caution Senator Fitzgerald to avoid becoming another Senator Star, this motion does wreak of Starism and this chamber has had quite enough of that revolting unpatriotic ideology.

Remember that everything we do is done by the approval and judgement of our most mighty Emperor, this is right and just. He is the bringer of peace, justice and the defender of Mankind. We owe the Emperor everything. Long live the Emperor.


Bernard Oriel
Senator for the Planet of Vjun
1st Earl Malreaux (Second Creation)
Vjun Delegation to the Imperial Senate
 
Titus_VeritasDate: Monday, 23 May 2011, 4:52 PM | Message # 30
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I apologize Senator Fitzgerald, but I still must vote Against this legislation.

Viceroy Titus Veritas, House Veritas
Consul of the House of Lords

Former Senator of Deralia and the Tammuz Sector (50 BBY - 30 BBY, 18 BBY - 10 BBY)
Former Chairman of the Imperial Senate Defense Committee (18 BBY - 10 BBY)
 
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