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The Citadel
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| Karth_DeQora | Date: Wednesday, 27 Jun 2012, 8:07 PM | Message # 16 |
 Colonel general
Group: Administrators
Messages: 1157
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| Alrighty. Adam, I love you man, but sometimes you make me want to punch my cat.
I'm not too keen on the nitty gritty aspects of ship combat, I'm still learning there. I'll let someone else handle the size issue (giggity) and the majority of the exact specs (Jaron's better suited to this, as is Jace). With that in mind, I do have a few questions:
- Anyone care to explain to me the difference between normal armor and reactive armor? I'm hard-pressed to find any information on it.
- The one sentence about rail guns being able to ignore shielding is rather vague, specifically the part that says 'Unlike conventional beam weaponry, these heavy orange rounds were not affected by ray shields, allowing these frigates to bypass an enemy's shielding and destroy it.[2]' The phase 'unlike conventional beam weaponry' seems to imply that rail guns were unique in that they could, as opposed to the weapons on most capital ships, bypass shielding. But again, that's my inference here, I could be wrong.
- So the accumulator is just an expensive backup genny? Btw, if you're going to address issues with Jace privately, I wish you'd do so with me as well, as a courtesy.
Quote (Alyn_Stark) 16) I could argue the Rebel Alliance doesn't crew ships with droids because they don't have the numbers
And I could argue that this doesn't make any sense at all. Wouldn't a lack of manpower necessitate droid crews, and not the other way around? And your argument does nothing to refute Jace's point. You essentially skipped around the issue there.
I appreciate the attempt to work with us here, but from the looks of it (and I'm eyeballing the specs here, don't read too much into this) this single ship still seems to be worth more than what some entire fleets in the RP are worth, from both a weapons perspective and an overall cost issue. I still don't see how something this large could be paid for by the Blackfire Organization. Is Stark the richest man in the galaxy? Is Stark the leader of Blackfire? I'm honestly blanking here.
Look, man, I can understand wanting to maximize the return on a request, I get that, but haggling with you can be tiresome. I don't mind doing it, just understand that there's a reason why we sometimes take a while to respond to requests like this.
Man, Myth, Administrative God. Also plays a mean kazoo.
Jace Varitek: In Northern California we just have gangs of vigilante interior decorators.
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| Alyn_Stark | Date: Wednesday, 27 Jun 2012, 9:29 PM | Message # 17 |
 Generalissimo
Group: Users
Messages: 1359
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| No cat punching, Karth. I'd feel bad and so would the cat!
Now, normal armor, if you will, can be imagined as a single sheet. A sheet of armor even. Reactive armor is simply designed to dissipate the heat from beam weaponry, or to spread out the force of impact of a projectile weapon. It's not so much more costly than it is time consuming to make. It's basically just a small upgrade.
On the rail guns, I don't see any reason why they wouldn't be stopped. Particle shielding, I believe, is designed against solid objects.
An accumulator isn't all that expensive, but more or less correct on the description. Also, in the future, I will bring matters to you as well as Jace.
About the Rebel Alliance, that was meant to say that the Rebels don't have the numbers of droids to crew a ship.
Even assuming it cost twice an ImpStar-II, that would only be 291,340,000. Stark stole far more than that from Telos IV.
I wouldn't say Stark is the richest man in the galaxy. Probably less rich than some of the Hutt Cartels. I'd place him on a near-Xizor level myself.
He also is (indirectly) the leader of Blackfire. Technically Blackfire Prime and the Council of Nine are the leaders of Blackfire. However, Stark (as the Reciter) is the head of Citadel. Citadel more or less runs Blackfire via Blackfire Prime and the Council of Nine. Blackfire, in essence, doesn't pay for anything. They do the grunt work. The Citadel are the minds, the wealth and power and the more valuable members, whether it be for brains, connection or killing ability.t
Alyn Stark
Lord of Kinyov
Senior Captain, Retired, Republic Navy
Head of House Malos (former)
Licensed bounty hunter
Majority shareholder, Lorrd Engineering
Owner, Stark Defense Conglomerate
Civilian Medal of Honor recipient
Representative, Lorrd (10 BBY-9 BBY)
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| Jace_Varitek | Date: Wednesday, 27 Jun 2012, 10:31 PM | Message # 18 |
 Generalissimo
Group: Administrators
Messages: 2245
Status: Offline
| I'm far too tired to followup on this tonight, but I do want to touch on the rail guns, briefly. The problem is the huge amount of kinetic energy they produce—in space, with no friction, the kinetic energy of a rail-accelerated projectile is usually more energy than any shield, in practice, is able to withstand. Not to bog this down in equations, but the rule of thumb I've seen is that an object impacting at 3 km/sec delivers kinetic energy equal to its mass in TNT; in other words, we're talking about the energy of an atomic bomb (in fact, many atomic bombs—an amount of force equal to approximately 1 of Tyber Zann's orgasms). Considering this, particle shields being able to stop the physical object itself is rather a moot point. I can't believe I'm saying this, but in this instance (if only in this instance), Empire at War: Forces of Corruption appears to be right.
As a stationary emplacement or a planetary defense weapon, a rail gun is something I'm open to. Not as a ship-to-ship weapon.
Jace Varitek
Manager/Administrator from January 2003 to Present
My recent posts here, pre-2009 archives here
"When my information changes, I change my opinion. What do you do, sir?"
—John Maynard Keynes
Furthermore, a dancing Wookiee:
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| Alyn_Stark | Date: Thursday, 28 Jun 2012, 4:32 AM | Message # 19 |
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Generalissimo
Group: Users
Messages: 1359
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| So assuming we change over the super-heavy cannon to even, say, ion cannons, what about the much, much smaller trio of rail cannons left on the ship? Obviously the slugs are smaller, I had them pictured as no larger than human head sized, honestly. Nice reference on Zann, by the way. Made me laugh.
However, when you compare it to weapons on a ship such as the Invisible Hand, whose point defense ion cannons alone are said to have the force equal to a 4.8 megaton bomb and whose quad turbolasers equal out to be a magnitude 10 groundquake, or the heavy cannons on a Munificent that are supposed to be able to pierce the shields of a 10 kilometer battlestation or melt and ice moon.
I mean, the obvious drawback to rail cannons is speed to target ratio. Fast targets are obviously much less likely to be hit, rendering fast enough freighters and certainly snubfighters out of the question. I'm still looking into statistics and information, most of which I will have to do tonight because we're running a mission all day, but I do believe that EaW: FoC is incorrect about the shielding.
Alyn Stark
Lord of Kinyov
Senior Captain, Retired, Republic Navy
Head of House Malos (former)
Licensed bounty hunter
Majority shareholder, Lorrd Engineering
Owner, Stark Defense Conglomerate
Civilian Medal of Honor recipient
Representative, Lorrd (10 BBY-9 BBY)
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| Jace_Varitek | Date: Thursday, 28 Jun 2012, 11:34 AM | Message # 20 |
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Generalissimo
Group: Administrators
Messages: 2245
Status: Offline
| Either way, I'm really reluctant to continue haggling over this until the main premise about the shipyard is resolved.
Jace Varitek
Manager/Administrator from January 2003 to Present
My recent posts here, pre-2009 archives here
"When my information changes, I change my opinion. What do you do, sir?"
—John Maynard Keynes
Furthermore, a dancing Wookiee:
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| Alyn_Stark | Date: Thursday, 28 Jun 2012, 5:02 PM | Message # 21 |
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Generalissimo
Group: Users
Messages: 1359
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| Well Jace, would it be completely implausible that a shipyard was constructed in secret? I mean, there's plenty of worlds out there with untapped resources. It's possible that someone noticed some odd comings and goings with automated vessels gathering materials, but they'd be marked with false markings and legitimate front companies run by Blackfire pawns. I mean, I obviously didn't make an account for all that exist, but Hodder, Twist, Timmons et al are fronts of their own. It's not that it's out of the realm of possibility, it's explaining it the right way.
Alyn Stark
Lord of Kinyov
Senior Captain, Retired, Republic Navy
Head of House Malos (former)
Licensed bounty hunter
Majority shareholder, Lorrd Engineering
Owner, Stark Defense Conglomerate
Civilian Medal of Honor recipient
Representative, Lorrd (10 BBY-9 BBY)
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| Jace_Varitek | Date: Thursday, 28 Jun 2012, 9:40 PM | Message # 22 |
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Generalissimo
Group: Administrators
Messages: 2245
Status: Offline
| No.
The resources and expertise are wildly beyond your organization's means.
And it would make a farce of requiring a shipyard for everyone else.
Jace Varitek
Manager/Administrator from January 2003 to Present
My recent posts here, pre-2009 archives here
"When my information changes, I change my opinion. What do you do, sir?"
—John Maynard Keynes
Furthermore, a dancing Wookiee:
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| Jaron | Date: Friday, 29 Jun 2012, 0:27 AM | Message # 23 |
 Major general
Group: Administrators
Messages: 252
Status: Offline
| Now that my mental breakdown is over, let us begin. The problem that is inherent within this request, is that so much of the background to it requires extraordinary measures to be taken and used, that it would required months, if not years, of RP just for this to stand a chance, honestly. Let us look at construction.
1.) I use droids to build it in deep space.
Problems: What droids? How did you get them? Certainly not piracy that has not been RPed.
2.) A secret shipyard was built.
Problems: By who? Droids? Again, what droids? How did you get them? Where are the resources and assets?
All of this has the pressing problem of lack of the relevant personnel, or droids, as well as assets and resources, let alone funds. Now, I am familiar with most of these terms and phrases; I am the more technically and militarily minded of us Managers. You won't have to explains reactive armor to me, hell most armored vehicles of the real-world are rolling with them now. But, how about instead of all these private consultations with one Manager or another, you either meet with all of us at once, or we just do the damned thing publicly? You know, like our rules say. That seems like an absolutely wonderful idea to me, since I still seem to be nothing more than afterthought in all of these backroom dealings that seem to be going on of late.
I'll take a moment to go into the haggling attempts that are being made. Yes, particle shields are designed to stop solid object; but they are not impenetrable. We see clearly in the films, the ultimate canon, that in a Star Destroyer vs an asteroid, the asteroid wins. If we see that a large enough asteroid at a not so measurable velocity. Let's use the M107 shell for an example, something you should be somewhat familiar with Adam; a 43.88 kilogram shell, accelerated to 2,997,924 meters per second (1% of lightspeed), results in an impact of 789293430.72 Joules of kinetic energy. This translates into an impact equivelant to 188 gigatons of TNT. You can forgive the yield for being off by a few megatons, as my physics is very rusty, but you get the idea. The mushroom cloud from such an explosion in atmosphere would reach into space; and while not the Chicxulub Impact, it would be enough to cause massive damage to a planet, including but not limited to earthquakes, crustal plate displacement, and nuclear winter. While you might be using a smaller shell, this is a weapon that can conceivably, if not used responsibly, destroy entire planets. And you may say "But I'm not attacking planets like that," however I pose to you to consider, if this is the damage that could be done to an entire planet, what do you think is the damage that will occur to a starship of even decent mass, like a Star Dreadnought, let alone the Star Destroyer or smaller ships you would encounter in the RP? The answer is annhilation, complete and total, utter annihilation. Let's reduce this to a human head size proportion for the shell. Even with such a far smaller shell, you're still looking at being to throw out a Tsar Bomba for each shell.
Frankly, a rail gun is ineffective on fast moving targets, so it's nonsensical to even bring it into the argument. Again, a leasurely floating asteroid of decent size can penetrate the partical shields of an Imperial II-class Star Destroyer and take out it's entire superstructure, and thus the ship, and you want to hearl Tsar Bombas at similar targets. Irregardless of other smaller weaponry, saying "Well, this things weapons are like a 4.8 megaton bomb, so I should have my 50 megaton bomb weapon!" makes no sense and is just a waste of space as far as an arguement is concerned. I'm not even going to touch the argument that "I need this because it's going to be attacked", for it takes care of itself just from reading.
You seem to be focusing in your arguements that "these guys" do it, and you can too. The frank end of the response is, you are not those guys. Stark is not Xizor, Citadel/Blackfire (an organization that Management is still pretty confused on the structure and workings of) is not Black Sun or the Hutt Syndicate, Stark Defense Conglomerate/Vigilance Technologies is not Kuat Drive Yards. You have organizations that have been around for mere months, and want them to have the same power of organizations that have been around for decades, centuries, and even millenia. Have people risen to that level with us? Yes. Did it take them time and RP? Yes, to a countless level. Can you do this? Why, yes, yes you can. Are you there? No. You, and you are nowhere near alone on this, are simply wanting too much, too fast.
I love making designs, and take as much time as you do in them, if not longer. I know the frustration of being looked at with a microscope, and being told what is unacceptable. It can be hard to be told everything you're wanting doesn't work. It, however, does come with the territory of designing. You should, however, be no stranger to unending, relentless criticism, being military. However, I feel that you don't know when to walk away. I can tell you, from my experience with Jace, that he will not budge on this. And to be honest, neither will I at this time. Down the road and with some re-working, I would love to aprove this, but even then is will be with the condition that Citadel AND Blackfire give up all other assets.
I apologize if I may have seemed overly harsh, but I'm trying to convey to you the incredible nature of this request. I'm going to have to DENY on this one, I'm afraid. Sorry, man.
Jaron Park
Manager from June 2009 to Present, Administrator from December 2011 to Present
(pre-April 2012 posts) (post-April 2012 posts)
Pre-2009 Archives
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| Alyn_Stark | Date: Friday, 29 Jun 2012, 2:18 AM | Message # 24 |
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Generalissimo
Group: Users
Messages: 1359
Status: Offline
| Table this request for now.
Alyn Stark
Lord of Kinyov
Senior Captain, Retired, Republic Navy
Head of House Malos (former)
Licensed bounty hunter
Majority shareholder, Lorrd Engineering
Owner, Stark Defense Conglomerate
Civilian Medal of Honor recipient
Representative, Lorrd (10 BBY-9 BBY)
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| Jaron | Date: Sunday, 08 Jul 2012, 2:35 PM | Message # 25 |
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Major general
Group: Administrators
Messages: 252
Status: Offline
| CLOSED
Jaron Park
Manager from June 2009 to Present, Administrator from December 2011 to Present
(pre-April 2012 posts) (post-April 2012 posts)
Pre-2009 Archives
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