The Citadel - Star Wars RP: A Galaxy At War Forum

The Citadel

Alyn_Stark

Date: Tuesday, 26 Jun 2012, 8:55 AM | Message # 1

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Who?

At the behest of the Reciter, the Citadel's top operatives put into play planning that would set them free from traditional operating boundaries. For the past six years efforts have been made by Citadel and Blackfire to appropriate the funds and means to create for themselves a mobile fortress vessel that would serve as a base of operations, a research and development facility and a manufacturing plant for their criminal operations.

Where?

Construction droids designed for shipbuilding constructed the above-mentioned vessel in deep space, near a star deep in the Unknown Regions in one of the varied systems devoid of life and far off the normal star charts. Discovery chance was quite low as the system held no valuable resources, life-giving planets and the construction itself was undertaken dangerously close to the system's sun so as to mask any energy signatures.

How?

Over the past six years, technology from Vigilance Technologies and primarily Lorrd Engineering, along with starship parts, written-off droids and falsified records have combined and been covered very carefully by a multitude of causes ranging from pirate raids to lost parts to simple damage to allow for the materials and hard-to-find portions that have gone into the construction of the vessel. Created largely by Lorrd Engineering's construction droids, it has been completed after two years of work.

Technical Specifications

Designation-

The Citadel

Hull type-

Fortress ship

Length-

3,000 meters

Armor-

Reactive

Power plant-

2x Lorrd Engineering solar ionization reactors

Engines-

10x Lorrd Engineering ion engines

Hyperdrive-

Class 2.0
Class 8.0 backup

Support Systems & Crew Quarters-

Autosupport unit
12x Hydroponics bays
20x Recycler units
175x Crew/troop bunkrooms
50x Passenger suites

Weapons-

1x Bow-mounted battering ram (detachable reinforced durasteel with explosive core)
2x Heavy rail cannons
6x Quad warhead launchers (4x concussion missile, 4x proton torpedo; forward firing, quad barrels recessed in bow)
16x Turbolaser cannons (8x port and 8x starboard; sponson mounted, front battery)
8x Dual turbolaser turrets (4x port and four starboard; turret mounted atop front battery)
10x Turbolaser cannons (5x starboard and 5x port; sponson mounted, mid-front battery)
1x Rail cannon and triple heavy ion cannon (turreted, dorsal front, 1st tier)
2x Rail cannon and dual heavy turbolaser cannons (turreted, dorsal mid, 2nd tier)
14x Turbolaser cannons (7x port and 7x starboard; sponson mounted, rear battery)
8x Dual turbolaser turrets (4x port and 4x starboard; turret mounted atop rear battery)
8x Turbolaser cannons (4x starboard and 4x port, sponson mounted, mid-rear battery)
8x Turbolaser cannons (4x port and 4x starboard; ventral spire, sponson mounted);
2x Quadruple heavy turbolaser cannon (1x port front corner, top tier, turret mounted; 1x starboard front corner, top tier, turret mounted)
125x Triple gatling point defense laser cannons (50 port, 50 starboard, 25 dorsal)

Defenses-

24x Chaff launchers
Damage control
10x Decoy drones
Jammer system
Repair bots
4x shield generators

Command & Control Systems-

Flag bridge
Launch tower
Fire control
Sensor control
Tac control
Nav control
Laser transceiver
Radio transceiver

Sensors-

EM Detector
Hi-res video
IR detector
Ladar
Multiphase radar
CE Passive array
Drive detector
Mass radar

Hangars & Small Craft-

30x Docking clamps
2x Hangar (1 port, 1 starboard)
4x Magazine (2 forward, 2 aft)

Miscellaneous Installations-

Airlocks
2x Brigs
20x Cargo hold
10x Fuel collector
8x Lab section
4x Security suite
8x Fabrication facility
40x Evac system
24x Boarding pod
8x Autocargo systems
8x Sick bay
8x Accumulator

BASIC CREW-

Deck

200x Deckhands
25x Cargo handlers
1x First lieutenant

Engineering

10x Drive techs
10x Engine techs
12x Power techs
8x Support tech
8x Eco tech
3x Engineering officers
1x Chief engineer

Navigation

7x Quartermasters
6x Helm operators
1x Operations officer

Operations

9x Electronics tech
9x Comp techs
20x Op Specialists
1x Operations officer

Auxiliary Engineering

100x Repair techs
32x Machinists
1x Damage control officer

Weapons

100x Gunners
24x Torpedomen & Missile Techs
10x Weapon officers
1x Chief weapons officer

Flight

50x Aviation techs
50x Flight deckhands
12x Flight ops specialists
25x Aviation weaponeers
1x Flight officer
1x Strike officer
1x Wing commander

Science

24x Technicians
6x Science officers
1x Chief science officer

Ship's Troops

1000x Troops
250x Sergeants
62x Officers
1x Commander

SUPPORT CREW-

Medical

20x Med techs
8x Surgeons
1x Ship's doctor

Service

1x Supply officer

Supply

50x Storeskeepers
1x Supply officer

Administration

20x Officers
1x Chief Master-at-arms
1x Admin Officer

Further Information-

(( To be determined ))

Alyn Stark
Lord of Kinyov
Senior Captain, Retired, Republic Navy
Head of House Malos (former)
Licensed bounty hunter
Majority shareholder, Lorrd Engineering
Owner, Stark Defense Conglomerate
Civilian Medal of Honor recipient
Representative, Lorrd (10 BBY-9 BBY)

Message edited by Alyn_Stark - Wednesday, 27 Jun 2012, 1:19 PM

Karth_DeQora

Date: Tuesday, 26 Jun 2012, 11:42 AM | Message # 2

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My initial response: eek

What I thought after having some coffee: facepalm

What I thought when I read the amount of weaponry on that thing:

What I'm doing now: weep

Gimme time to review this with my peers.

Man, Myth, Administrative God. Also plays a mean kazoo.
Jace Varitek: In Northern California we just have gangs of vigilante interior decorators.

Jace_Varitek

Date: Tuesday, 26 Jun 2012, 12:00 PM | Message # 3

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I've already gone through the 5 stages of grief, except for "Acceptance." But I've been giving Adam a hard enough time on his requests lately that I'm actually going to sit back and vote last on this one.

Jace Varitek
Manager/Administrator from January 2003 to Present
My recent posts here, pre-2009 archives here

"When my information changes, I change my opinion. What do you do, sir?"
—John Maynard Keynes

Furthermore, a dancing Wookiee:

Alyn_Stark

Date: Tuesday, 26 Jun 2012, 1:08 PM | Message # 4

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I did warn you that you'd hate it, Jace.

Karth, sorry if I went into too much detail. I've been working on this for some time. The picture itself doesn't exactly give enough details so I spent a good 8 hours (not straight, thank God) cross-referencing certain designs.

When considering weaponry at least, Karth, keep in mind that this vessel is intended to be both ship for launching criminal missions and R&D and fabrication of certain items and on top of that is roughly a little larger than a pair of Imperial-II Star Destroyers. To underarm it would be to suffer from the same mistake that Carl (no offense mate) made on a majority of the Cronese designs.

That being said, the ship isn't without a damn good number of drawbacks, which, oddly, I'm more than willing to post in the open and trust they won't be exploited in play.

Karth_DeQora

Date: Tuesday, 26 Jun 2012, 3:18 PM | Message # 5

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Yes, I'd love to hear them.

Man, Myth, Administrative God. Also plays a mean kazoo.
Jace Varitek: In Northern California we just have gangs of vigilante interior decorators.

Jace_Varitek

Date: Tuesday, 26 Jun 2012, 3:37 PM | Message # 6

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I don't think it'll be necessary, personally.

I'd rather see explanations of the many technological terms in here that we have no idea of the meaning of. (This has been mentioned many times in previous requests. Personally, I'm going to deny of any non-canon technology here that doesn't have an explanation of it).

And I don't hate the ship, I think I just hate the request. (For instance, having to add up all the individual crew members to get a total number is very irritating).

Quote

When considering weaponry at least, Karth, keep in mind that this vessel is intended to be both ship for launching criminal missions and R&D and fabrication of certain items and on top of that is roughly a little larger than a pair of Imperial-II Star Destroyers.

I'm not sure "it needs to have more weaponry because I want it to" is really a valid reason.

But as I said, I'm going to resist posting on here for the time being.

Alyn_Stark

Date: Tuesday, 26 Jun 2012, 4:21 PM | Message # 7

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Fair enough, Jace. I'm willing to touch on any terms that may be unfamiliar. It may also be that Star Wars canon utilizes a different name for the same thing, but that I use a standard 'sci-fi' term for it. So let me see offhand...

1) Reactive Neutronite- Approved in previous requests; by definition it is is a tough steel alloy into which a weave of free neutrons has been pressed. It's rather heavy. The reactive portion of the armor over the neutronite is simply layers of insulating gel compressed between durasteel armor sheets. It's designed to dissipate the impact or intense heat of an attack.

2) Defense network deployment system- this system consists of a multitude of small, disposable or recoverable laser weapons deployed in a cloud surrounding the launching ship. Once deployed, the defense network is creates a screen against missile and torpedo attack. Since the constellation of defensive remotes can’t maneuver, the ship loses its defense network if it moves after deploying the remotes.

That should cover all non-canon items, as far as I can tell.

Jace, there's more to it than simply, "I want it to have lots of guns." It is the single culmination of a criminal organization that's on a massive, meteoric rise to power. vThe ability to remain mobile, conduct the business they must and be able to fight off even Imperial elements if discovered is a valuable asset. Make no mistake, this is not a ship designed to assault planets by any means.

Karth, I'll list at least a few drawbacks for you:

1) The heavy cannons mounted to either side are obviously slow loading and firing. They are projectile-based instead of being a mounted version of the planetary turbolaser and have to be aimed be aiming the ship, more or less. More maneuverable targets can easily get out of the firing path.

2) Marked lack of weaponry covering direct topside and direct ventral. You may not have noticed much of the weapons standpoint, but the majority of the weapons are brought to bear from a broadside position. The front and rear are covered decently, by a strike against direct dorsal and direct ventral has far less weaponry to defend against attacks than any other side.

3) Unique nature. Cause the ship tends to stand out. It's a one-of-a-kind and isn't something that can really remain hidden for long once it starts moving. It's bound to draw eyes and, in some ways, may make Citadel and Blackfire's job much harder. Tell me one of the smartasses on the site isn't going to try gunning for it. I'd bet a good amount of cash that this ship is like saying, 'Come at me brah.'

4) Lack of (current) small craft. Granted there's a few drones they can throw in, but the ship has nowhere near it's compliment of drone fighters. Right now, it's a rather large sitting duck if it gets caught in the open. Also granted, this is something that, with play, will be worked upon to fix, but right now while it's 'finished and mobile' it's a flaw.

There's more but I'd rather not give all my secrets away.

Jace_Varitek

Date: Tuesday, 26 Jun 2012, 5:43 PM | Message # 8

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So, Karth doesn't want to post yet so I'll go ahead.

The idea that 4 kilometers worth of raw materials, ship components, engine parts, etc. could be quietly misappropriated in a years-long, galaxy-spanning conspiracy without anyone noticing is—I'm sorry, really—just absurd. All of these parts being assembled in deep space by droids is unlikely (and cheap) in the extreme. The idea that this ship could be built without a shipyard is laughable, but moreover, the "assembled by droids" idea has been addressed in the past:

Quote (Jace_Varitek)

for R&L to be located "beyond the Outer Rim," for no one to ever see Ravak or Larben, to use droids for labor who are then memory wiped, and so on, seems to me rather like a deus ex machina.

...

I'm more concerned about all of this rather as a question of fairness to other shipwrights in the RP who run the same risks as R&L but have to deal with the consequences of those risks, which R&L, under this request, would not. Especially in a situation where other shipwrights would be competing with R&L for business, in the RP, I'm reluctant to give one corporation such advantages over another.

This is a far grander situation in which a minor and totally-unknown criminal organization is building a ship that surpasses the latest generation technology of the vast Imperial war machine, and does so in total anonymity without so much as a shipyard. Someone else pointed out to me, and it bears repeating here, that the Rebellion never managed anything close to this, and it presumably had greater resources than this criminal organization that sits rather low on the totem pole of criminal organizations. (The Hutt Cartel is never seen with a ship like this, or Black Sun, or anyone else that I'm aware of—and Citadel is no Black Sun or Hutt Cartel; I don't imagine that Citadel is comprised of any more than a few dozen people).

Nor is it believable that Citadel (the organization, not the ship), even if it pooled all of its money with the entire Stark family fortune, would be able to afford this or launder all those credits without anyone keeping any for themselves or telling anyone else about it. There must come a point when a person or persons inside the organization are going to raise concerns about wasting so much money on a ship they don't have the crew to operate or the resources to maintain (nowhere is the maintenance of the ship mentioned in the request—and "droids handle that stuff" won't cut it when other RPers are held to the shipyard standard. Again, it isn't acceptable for this ship to not be built, or maintained, in a shipyard; I consulted with Karth on this sentence [he was online, Jaron wasn't] and he agrees). And rarely is "raising concerns" in a criminal organization a subtle or discreet affair, especially when we're talking about so much money.

Considering all of this, before I continue on to the ship's stats I must ask, do you want to continue on? Granted, I haven't talked to Jaron on this and he might well have a discrepant opinion, but I can't imagine the basic premise of this ship, how it was built, where the materials came from, how much it cost, how it'll be crewed and maintained, etc. is going to hold up.

Jace_Varitek

Date: Tuesday, 26 Jun 2012, 5:46 PM | Message # 9

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Actually, I stand corrected; the Zann Consortium managed some stuff that's similar to this, but I'm on the record with my opinion of that game and whether it's really canon or not.

Jace_Varitek

Date: Tuesday, 26 Jun 2012, 5:52 PM | Message # 10

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Here too.

Jace_Varitek

Date: Tuesday, 26 Jun 2012, 5:53 PM | Message # 11

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And here.

Alyn_Stark

Date: Wednesday, 27 Jun 2012, 5:30 AM | Message # 12

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I believe I will see this through Jace, after the amount of work I put in on this thing.

I suppose that it could be changed to have been built at a shipyard, after all. The Hutt Cartel, incidentally, had the Darksaber project if I recall correctly (I may be wrong), but that was technically a super weapon.

If I may say so as well, I don't see how this vessel surpasses the current generation of Imperial war technology.

Added (27 Jun 2012, 2:27 AM)
---------------------------------------------
Also, speaking of which, to answer several points in your last sentence, I can go more into depth if you like on the how built, where, how much the cost and crew issues. The crew stats are a maximum, full operational capacity. Obviously not all those numbers are necessary. I just cut it down with some quick calculations to find that you can reduce the crew by 4,123 and still not impair operations.

Added (27 Jun 2012, 5:30 AM)
---------------------------------------------
And after further calculations, you can cut that number by 5,109.

Jace_Varitek

Date: Wednesday, 27 Jun 2012, 11:38 AM | Message # 13

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So, look, I know what it's like to spend hours on a labor of love, and when I've done it and seen other people do it, as with any sort of love, one doesn't see its flaws until some rude awakening later. (When I found out a prospective girlfriend had atrocious spelling and grammar, for instance. Or the band Frijid Pink, in fact, sucks.) I commend the work you put into this, I really do, but please forgive me for feeling a need to shake you by the shoulders and tell you to "snap out of it!" So with this in mind, I'll continue on.

I read "Basic Crew" to mean minimum crew, but your point is taken, if not quite accepted. I don't see how it can be said that you "don't see how this vessel surpasses the current generation of Imperial war technology" when it's twice the size of an Imperial Star Destroyer, with more guns and engines, but somehow has 1/36th of the crew requirement. Moreover, neutronite has been approved in the past as a custom Ravak & Larben technology (though every request for it, as far as I can tell, has required afresh an explanation of what it is). I can't make the leap from Ravak & Larben technology to Stark having access to it, let alone this many square kilometers of it. DENY.

With respect to the Darksaber, it was a bare-bones superlaser that never worked doesn't strike me as particularly costly, especially when it was built by slave labor. Moreover, the cost-cutting was oft mentioned in the book, and this from Wookieepedia; "The materials purchased from low-bid contractors were of poor quality; the computer cores provided by Durga's ally, Sulamar, were outdated; and the hive-minded Taurill species who assembled the Darksaber were often distracted, and, as a result, tended to make mistakes in the construction." Under these circumstances, sure, a Hutt can build a superweapon in-name-only (mind you, it was Durga the Hutt, not the Hutt Cartel). This, in contrast, is meant to be a state-of-the-art battlecruiser bigger and better-armed and -apportioned than the latest gen Imperial ships—ships designed and built with a budget quite possibly millions of times larger than Stark's.

So I can't accept this ship being superior to an Imperial Star Destroyer (moreover, we've consistently denied ships that are, from the Leviathan-class Heavy Battle Carrier to, in hindsight, the Kruus-class "Battle Galleon" and the Kor Vella-class Battleship). With this in mind, I'll address the statistics finally, beginning with the armament.

Two HVs-2 hyper-velocity guns—planetary turbolasers, essentially. DENY. One of these would be over the top. Quad multipurpose warhead launchers--we've reached a point, in my opinion, where these ship requests really need to settle on what type of missile they fire, rather than trying to have it all ways. 104 heavy turbolasers—surely, you jest? A Star Destroyer has twenty of them. Twenty. DENY And 750 gatling guns? No, just no. DENY. Three rail guns—invincible (for all intents and purposes) to any and all forms of shielding. Also known as "insta-win" guns. DENY. Why does Stark have these and Imperial ships don't? (Neither do any other ships, in most cases).

I'd rather not have to deny these, but with so much weaponry I don't even know where to begin to slim it down.

Moving on to some other statistics in no particular order; Lorrd Engineering ion engines (fourteen of them) and power plants? How could these possibly be "disappeared" into Stark's hands? Each one costs hundreds of millions of credits, presumably. And people notice when hundreds of millions of credits worth of product is missing. DENY. 4,000 meter length—DENY. How many square meters can be reduced by eliminating the 300 unnecessary passenger suites? Defense network deployment systems—in case 750 gatling guns and 36 chaff launchers aren't adequate enough against starfighters, you need not 1, but 6 clouds of laser weapons floating around the ship? DENY. Eight shield generators compared with, what, two on a Star Destroyer? DENY.

I don't know what a CE Passive Array or a Drive Detector are and I'm not able to find them anywhere. And a "lab section" and dedicated science crew on a pirate ship, and 90 medics and 12 surgeons? DENY. Why would Citadel (the organization) build a ship with a capacity for 1,313 troops when there aren't even that many people in the entire organization? What's an "Accumulator"? (And if it's some sort of toilet, I must warn you I'm going to have a "ffs" moment.) And does this ship seriously have waiters? I'd like to point out that in looking up what a "mess steward" is I came across this website, and as you look over it I'd like to point out, again, that this is a pirate ship built on a budget. How can Citadel's (the organization's) leadership possibly condone paying waiters for its bank-breaking battleship? To say nothing of the "indoor pools" and "enormous boardrooms"?

If you insist on the ship having these things, I have to insist on the ship costing all of the money that Citadel has, and Stark's entire fortune, for that matter.

Quote (Alyn_Stark)

While the projected crew estimates are high, 'unnecessary' crew can and easily are replaced by droids of the same number or droids with an ability to multifunction, thereby reducing the number of organic crew required for operation.

DENY. The projected crew estimates are unacceptably low for a ship of this size. In the interest of simple fairness to other RPers, the "droids do it" excuse just isn't acceptable. Within reason, yes. But we left Reason city limits a long while ago. Where are the Rebel Alliance ships with droid crews? Or the Imperial ships, for that matter? If it's so easy that Stark can do it, why doesn't anyone else?

That might be everything I have to say. I really don't know, I need someone else to spot me here because this is at least a two-man job. Again, I feel bad about this because I know and respect that you worked long and hard on it. But I don't think I'm being inconsistent with the many similar ship requests we've denied in the past, and you know this wasn't exactly unexpected.

Alyn_Stark

Date: Wednesday, 27 Jun 2012, 1:19 PM | Message # 14

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Fair enough, Jace. You have made a multitude of good points. Instead of trashing the request, I went back and reworked the problematic aspects. I shall list the changes here.

1) Length dropped to 3,000 meters, under the size of two Star Destroyers.

2) Neutronite portion of the armor removed. It's now simply normal Star Wars (durasteel?) armor with layers of insulating gel packed between the plates, still rendering it as reactive armor.

3) Engines downgraded to ten. Furthermore, the acquisition of the engines and powerplants could be explained via piracy on a large convoy. Presumably, Lorrd Engineering ships parts out to other places, as well as building in-house. Since Citadel has contacts in Lorrd Engineering, I don't see it as being that hard tp spill the location of a travel route. Now, granted, I could have sat and played out attacking and defending among myself to, in essence, steal my own stuff, but that did strike me as a little redundant.

4) The hypervelocity guns replaced by heavy rail cannons which are simply upscaled versions of Mass-driver cannons.

5) Multipurpose warhead launchers altered to be: two sets of concussion and four of proton torpedo.

6) Amount of 'heavy' turbolaser cannons reduced to 12.

7) Rail guns are not immune to forms of shielding, nor are they insta-win guns. The only mention I see of them being capable of ignoring shields is in relation to Tyber Zann, who as we all know, can pierce shields with the sperm he shoots, so in short, we can ignore that part.

8) Defense network system dropped. Chaff launchers reduced to 24.

9) Eight shield generators reduced to four.

10) 300 passenger suites reduced to fifty.

11) A drive detector is basically a dedicated sensor to monitor Cronau radiation. A CE passive array is a combination of EM, IR and video scan though it works passively rather than actively.

12) Lab sections reduced to eight and medical bays reduced as well. The purpose for the laboratories is so that Citadel can continue work on certain technologies that have yet to be stolen, pending RP when it gets around to happening. Also, medics and surgeons reduced.

13) Crew requirements greatly lessened to exclude the majority of unnecessary crew

14) the capacity for troops is closer to only 100-200. There is a reason the space therein is mentioned though. Jace, I'll address this one to you in messenger.

15) The accumulator is simply a power-storage for providing the ship with quick one-shot recharge on high-powered weapons or extra power for maneuverability in an emergency situation.

16) I could argue the Rebel Alliance doesn't crew ships with droids because they don't have the numbers and the Empire doesn't because after so many droid-based incidents, they don't trust them. Droids are easier to sabotage than humans.

17) Point-defense cannons reduced to 125.

18) Dropped two hangars and two brigs

19) Dropped four turbolaser cannons

This is a start that I have. Once you go through/over it again, I'll change what must be changed.

Karth_DeQora

Date: Wednesday, 27 Jun 2012, 7:20 PM | Message # 15

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Post coming within the hour.

Man, Myth, Administrative God. Also plays a mean kazoo.
Jace Varitek: In Northern California we just have gangs of vigilante interior decorators.