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The Proscription of Force Sensitives from High Office
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| Senator_Cambrist | Date: Monday, 20 Apr 2009, 2:18 PM | Message # 1 |
 Lieutenant general
Group: Users
Messages: 761
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| I believe the resolution is self explanatory, so I will merely quote my earlier remarks that I "have reservations on whether anyone proficient in the Force—specifically, proficient in sensing and influencing other's thoughts—should serve in a position where competing interests must be balanced and matters of security must be classified. We are a democracy, yes, but without any secrets I don't believe we could function as a government." Of course, this is not a witch hunt, and nor should we be punitive against Force sensitives who are already serving among us (such as, notably, the good Leia Organa-Solo). Therefore, the resolution would not apply retroactively, but only to prospective Senators. I vote in favor of the proscription of Force sensitives from high office. Senator Cambrist, Brentaal
Chairman of the Commerce Council
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| LomenRyuun | Date: Monday, 20 Apr 2009, 4:17 PM | Message # 2 |
 Lieutenant general
Group: Users
Messages: 696
Status: Offline
| If you have reservations, Senator Cambrist, then how can they not include Force-sensitives that are, at present, within the New Republic governing body? No slight is meant to the Jedi, but I will bring up that they have close relations with the New Republic government in many ways and forms. Do you, therefore, propose that the Jedi no longer have contact with the Senate? If anything, Senator Cambrist, your resolution here simply means that if a Force-sensitive wishes to become a Senator, he or she will simply mask that particular fact. Instead of honesty, which has been shown before by certain prospective Senators, we would have lies and deceit. As such, I am against this resolution. There has never been a ban upon Force-sensitives before to the best of my knowledge. I do not wish to see one now.
Senator Ryuun
Druckenwell
Lomen Ryuun
Senator, Doldur Sector
Senator, Druckenwell
Representative, Monor II (10 BBY - 9 BBY)
Representative, Geridard
Representative, Boranall
Representative, Therenor Prime
Vice-chairman, Defense Committee (Temporarily suspended)
Controlling Shareholder - Druckenwell Arms Corporation
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| Senator_Cambrist | Date: Monday, 20 Apr 2009, 4:46 PM | Message # 3 |
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Lieutenant general
Group: Users
Messages: 761
Status: Offline
| My reservations, in fact, do include Force sensitives that are presently among us, but concerned though I am (and as we all should be), I sadly cannot propose an ex post facto resolution. Such would be unconstitutional. Of note, however, nowhere in this measure would contact with the Jedi be banned or discouraged. All opinions should be heard, only not read from someone else's mind with the Force. We do not want that sort of subterfuge and demagoguery that Palpatine no doubt used to his advantage in the Senate of olde. As for your latter point, about the potential for dishonesty and lies, I can only say I do not believe the Senate should allow dishonest liars to frighten us from voting for a good measure. Senator Cambrist, Brentaal
Chairman of the Commerce Council
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| Eli_Fitzgerald | Date: Monday, 20 Apr 2009, 5:12 PM | Message # 4 |
 Major general
Group: Users
Messages: 355
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| Is the Senator aware that one of the first measures the Empire usually took to disenfranchise and eventually exterminate "undesirable" species, beliefs and individuals was to ban them from public office? I listened for the word "ban" in your remarks and didn't hear it, but even if you call it a "proscription," you're still banning a whole constituency from representation because of what you've told us again and again is a mere biological characteristic. This hardly sounds like the Declaration of a New Republic's stated intention to "secure liberty for all beings." If it's Force sensitives who are undesirable today, Senator Cambrist, who will be undesirable tomorrow? Who will be the next target of "proscription"? I happen to share your concern, to some extent, but not your means of resolving it. I would also suggest it's rather hypocritical from a man who says the students of his private "Academy for Force Sensitives" will be exemplary citizens and good samaritans, and now wants to ban those very people from holding high office. I vote against the measure because it is discrimination, plain and simple. Eli Fitzgerald
Chief of State
Eli Fitzgerald
Senator of Ralltiir (10 BBY—Present)
"I was elected to do some flamethrowing in the Senate. To a light a fire under those Senators and make it hot for them."
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| Senator_Cambrist | Date: Monday, 20 Apr 2009, 7:53 PM | Message # 5 |
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Lieutenant general
Group: Users
Messages: 761
Status: Offline
| Before the honorable Chief of State refers to me as a hypocrite, he might do well to first remember his own remarks of just one month ago when he argued, in his words, "that A.) the Jedi possess extraordinary and exceptional powers and responsibilities different from other citizens, and so B.) the Jedi require extraordinary and exceptional treatment under the law, different from other citizens." If this is true of Jedi, Mr. President, it is true of all Force sensitives. You set the precedent, Sir, not I. So I would ask the Chief of State to kindly not liken this measure to Imperial persecution. Hardly. The Brentaal Academy should prove that I have no prejudice against Force sensitives, and I do believe they can be productive members of society, business, and even politics. The question is whether they should serve in high office, where matters of interstellar diplomacy, security, and secrecy are at stake, where reasoned judgment is essential and must not be influenced by the manipulations of the Force. This is not an unreasonable concern. Senator Cambrist, Brentaal
Chairman of the Commerce Council
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| Simon_Levi | Date: Monday, 20 Apr 2009, 9:16 PM | Message # 6 |
 Major general
Group: Users
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| I am in favour of this, I believe force sensitives are given very large privilages... They also wheild super-being powers. Force sensitives already have so many avenues open to them, while I hesitate to pass legislation restricting a minority from a career path, I feel recent years have shown the majority of religious force users as certainly unsuitable for high office, Palpatine, Durron.. this list goes on. This does not bar them from many careers within the New Republic, healer, Jedi, soldier, pilot, scientist researcher... But I feel that the 0.1% of NR jobs this will prevent force users from filling is a significant one. How can we have a politician who can change another mans mind with a word or gesture, could fire lightning and fire across the senate.. this simply renders a politician a danger. This I am in favour.
Moff of the Tammuz Sector
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| LomenRyuun | Date: Monday, 20 Apr 2009, 10:00 PM | Message # 7 |
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Lieutenant general
Group: Users
Messages: 696
Status: Offline
| Then where does the argument go next, Senator Kruus? Do we say that Force-sensitives cannot serve as guards of Senators or high-ranking New Republic members? After all, they can still, as you say "change another mans mind with a word or gesture." Should we prevent them from having any contact with anyone of rank? Or tell me, Senator Kruus, would you have them rounded up and kept confined for all our safety? While I may disagree with the esteemed Senator from Brentaal, your response aggravates me in the extreme. It has been shown that the Force can be used over great distances, so what is to prevent Force-sensitives, angry at such a resolution, from acting on impulses they might have once concealed? This is an explosion waiting to happen, Senators. While I believe Senator Cambrist had good intentions, this resolution cannot pass if equality is to remain. Senator Ryuun
Druckenwell
Lomen Ryuun
Senator, Doldur Sector
Senator, Druckenwell
Representative, Monor II (10 BBY - 9 BBY)
Representative, Geridard
Representative, Boranall
Representative, Therenor Prime
Vice-chairman, Defense Committee (Temporarily suspended)
Controlling Shareholder - Druckenwell Arms Corporation
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| Simon_Levi | Date: Monday, 20 Apr 2009, 10:41 PM | Message # 8 |
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Major general
Group: Users
Messages: 395
Status: Offline
| Senator Lomen! There is not equality as it stands! Is it equality that a man can strike another down with lightning and fire? Is it equality that a man can use his powers to twist the very mind of another being? Is it equality that a wookiee can rip the arms off a human? Is it equality that we eat various animals? Is it equality that many greedy senators feast on their fat cat salaries while thousands starve on planets across the New Republic! Complete equality, whether physical, mental, economic or indeed in terms of eligibility for office cannot be complete.. Indeed if it was we would all be a hoarde of savant drones merely doing our bit and never seeking to excel or grow. I do not say this unsympathetically, and I am not in favour of there being anymore inequality than is natural or required for the public good, but sometimes it is required, and sometimes it is natural. I for one accept that luck has a large part to play in all things, or fate, or whatever you call it, and some beings have advantages, some disadvantages. Now force users have massive advantages... And I would refer my honourable friends to the New Republic Archives for a shortened list of these (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_powers), as such, it does not seem unreasonable that if beings have such great power, and have repeatedly shown to act in a manner making them unsuitable for high office that they should be barred from that high office. What if Kyp Durron had become Chief of State and been 'possessed by an evil force spirit' and destroyed Coruscant instead of Carida, then we would all have egg on our collective faces, if we still kept them. I cry no! no! no! We cannot allow such dangerous and potentially unstable individuals in positions where they cannot be closely monitored and supervised (with someone exerting a moderating executive influence upon them).
Moff of the Tammuz Sector
Message edited by Senator_Kruus - Monday, 20 Apr 2009, 10:47 PM |
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| Eli_Fitzgerald | Date: Tuesday, 21 Apr 2009, 1:58 PM | Message # 9 |
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Major general
Group: Users
Messages: 355
Status: Offline
| That quote from me is not hypocritical at all when actually presented in context. "Extraordinary and exceptional treatment," as you well know, refers to preferential treatment, not discrimination. That measure and that quote is a means of accomodating the Jedi's extraordinary and exceptional powers, not banning them from representation. It recognizes inherent differences between those who are Force sensitives and those who aren't, but is not a justification to disenfranchise them. Now, Force sensitives do have certain abilities (I wouldn't call them "privileges," because the use of your long list of abilities, Senator Kruus, is still confined to proper legal conduct), but if anything Chief of State Organa-Solo, who has been villified here today, has proven that these abilities can be used in a responsible, safe and democratic manner. And also, Senator Kruus, that inequality will always exist in the galaxy is not a justification to perpetuate inequality, or to deprive any constituency of their representation or their liberty. There is a legitimate concern here, but with only one exception it has not been a persistent problem throughout history. I would also remind us that it was the Jedi who warned us of Mr. Novak's affiliations, was it not? I believe that we can continue to rely on them in these sorts of instances, and make the sort of "reasoned judgments" that Senator Cambrist mentions, rather than disenfranching a class of person because of their biological characteristics. I remain against. Eli Fitzgerald
Chief of State
Eli Fitzgerald
Senator of Ralltiir (10 BBY—Present)
"I was elected to do some flamethrowing in the Senate. To a light a fire under those Senators and make it hot for them."
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| LomenRyuun | Date: Tuesday, 21 Apr 2009, 2:08 PM | Message # 10 |
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Lieutenant general
Group: Users
Messages: 696
Status: Offline
| I agree with you, Chief of State Fitzgerald, when you state that Force sensitivity is not a reason to deprive sentient beings of their liberty. If I can make a small intervention though, I would state that perhaps a motion could be formed that would actually increase the methods of Force-trained members of the government. Without meaning disrespect to the Jedi (and, seeing as how you have mentioned the former issue regarding Druckenwell's Minister of Defense), it was not the Jedi who discerned Minister Novak's actions, but rather his own sense of morals that led him to declare himself, so that there might have been no issue or deception. If there were perhaps more sensitive beings within the government's halls, they might well be able to discern any others who attempt to join and, instead of being honest, choose to hide their extra abilities. Senator Ryuun
Druckenwell
Lomen Ryuun
Senator, Doldur Sector
Senator, Druckenwell
Representative, Monor II (10 BBY - 9 BBY)
Representative, Geridard
Representative, Boranall
Representative, Therenor Prime
Vice-chairman, Defense Committee (Temporarily suspended)
Controlling Shareholder - Druckenwell Arms Corporation
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| Cul-utaanForte | Date: Tuesday, 21 Apr 2009, 5:14 PM | Message # 11 |
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Colonel
Group: Users
Messages: 150
Status: Offline
| This brings many flashbacks to me that are not long past. My people...and my homeworld...my true homeworld of Ryloth..suffered under the Empire and it's humanocentric policies. What may be a step today against Force Sensitives...like Palpatine's Great Jedi Purge...will only avalanche into steps against species deemed "unfit"...like Human High Culture, the Ghorman Massacre, the Firrerreo Genocide... I will not allow that to happen again. I vote firmly Against, and due to my emotions...can no longer comment on this subject.
General Cul'utaan'forte
Forte's Legion
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| Jory_Carson | Date: Tuesday, 21 Apr 2009, 5:47 PM | Message # 12 |
 Major general
Group: Users
Messages: 317
Status: Offline
| “Are you suggesting then, that the only means of subterfuge and deceit are by ways of the Force? I think not. How many times, Senator, have our own members and indeed the members of old been influenced by mere greed and not by some mystical power? “If we are to remove from High Office all those that are blessed with the Force then should we not also remove all who are blessed with, say, credits? Assuredly Senator Cambrist, money is the greatest influence, historically, of all. “I feel that I am not only morally, but politically obligated to agree with Chief Fitzgerald. This measure is wrong on every level. Discriminating against a sentient simply because their biological makeup is different than our own makes us nothing more than the Empire with a different name. “A am wholly against this legislation.”
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| Senator_Cambrist | Date: Tuesday, 21 Apr 2009, 5:53 PM | Message # 13 |
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Lieutenant general
Group: Users
Messages: 761
Status: Offline
| I believe the purpose of this measure might have gone over Senator Forte's head. Also, to Senator Carson, a bribe can be freely refused. But what if a Force sensitive manipulates you into accepting one? Senator Cambrist, Brentaal
Chairman of the Commerce Council
Lord of the Blockadesmen
Message edited by Reuke_Cambrist - Tuesday, 21 Apr 2009, 5:55 PM |
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| Tremaine_Fowlkes | Date: Tuesday, 21 Apr 2009, 8:22 PM | Message # 14 |
 Colonel general
Group: Users
Messages: 881
Status: Offline
| I do not believe it is necessary to expel the current force sensitives from the Senate, and to prevent future applicants. It would indicate that we have a discrimination against those who wield the force. I believe that when the foundation of New Republic occured, it was to promote equality among the sentient beings in the galaxy regardless of race, religion, gender, class, and whoever is using the force or not. The New Republic is here to promote the equal opportunities for everyone, unlike the oppression the former Galactic Empire has placed on the galaxy for about two decades. If you were concerned about that guy who claimed to be a Sith, we should allow the force sensitives into the Senate regardless. I can understand why we would be hesistated, and even flat out rejected the Sith. Although one thing comes to my mind, what about the Jedi? What if they want to apply to the Senate? They should receive the EXACTLY same rights we, the common Republic citizens, have. I vote against the proposal made by Senator Cambrist. Tremaine Fowlkes,
Senator of Mowgle
Tremaine Fowlkes
Senator of Telos IV
Message edited by Tremaine_Fowlkes - Tuesday, 21 Apr 2009, 8:23 PM |
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| DannilBoVar | Date: Wednesday, 22 Apr 2009, 7:31 PM | Message # 15 |
 Major
Group: Users
Messages: 84
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| "While I agree that Force-Sensitivity does present unique problems in terms of the force being used as a form of persuasion, I must similar rebuke that we cannot justify discrimination of a group that I believe to be fundamentally required by the New Republic. There is a reason that Palpatine order the massacre of the Jedi during the Great Purge, and I believe that for this reason alone--the Jedi are a bastion of democracy."
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Dannil Bo'Var
Representative
InterGalactic Mining Core and Subsidiaries
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