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Star Wars RP: A Galaxy At War Forum » Archives & Flashbacks » In Character » Select Committee on the "Viceroy Kruus" (Hearing on Ethical Implications)
Select Committee on the "Viceroy Kruus"
Artemis_VandenDate: Saturday, 09 Jan 2010, 4:18 PM | Message # 1
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The Select Committee on Viceroy Kruus is now in session. This afternoon we will be inquiring into the ethical implications of this vessel and, specifically, its interface of an organic "pilot" with inorganic systems. I ask that the Committee limit its questioning, in this session, to this particular topic. Senator Luuneray Kruus of Neimoidia, whose son, Ictood Kruus, is the "pilot" in question, will testify first. Later, the Committee will recieve the testimony of Rachel Levitt, an ethicist from the University of Coruscant, and Sylvester Vifay, a spokesman for Genetech Laboratories.

A brief note: Senator Lancer Niedra has joined the Committee, and on behalf of us all I welcome him to the proceeding.

I also welcome Senator Kruus, and I thank him for testifying this afternoon. I've been told that you don't require an opening statement, and I will keep mine brief so that we may proceed to questioning. As we know, the Viceroy Kruus is described as an "armored galleon," over 5,000 meters long. It is a novel vessel, not only for this reason but because it has a crew of only one—Ictood Kruus, the Senator's son. He has been fully and permanently integrated into the ship's computer systems, and he manages its weapons, propulsion, shielding, repair, and so on with his mind, assisted by dozens of subordinate processors. There have been experiments in droid operated vessels in the past, and even some examples of organic and inorganic integration—such as the Lucrehulk-class battleship, for instance—but never one to this extent.

This raises certain ethical questions, which I and the Committee will endeavor to pose to Senator Kruus today. I will begin with an ostensibly simple question, but one with broad implications. Senator, is your son a person? Is he a battleship? Is he both? Please discuss this, if you would.


Artemis Vanden
Representative of the Naboo
 
Simon_LeviDate: Saturday, 09 Jan 2010, 6:50 PM | Message # 2
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Mr Chairman,

I would first like to draw attention to the fact that the Committee has been misinformed, the Battleship Kruus is only 1,750 Meters long, a far cry from the 5,000 quoted above. And while it may be longer than other ships in service, it is of a similar tonnage to smaller ships, which surely is the relevant factor.

My Son, Captain Luneray I.C.T.O.O.D Kruus is a Cyborg. And I am not ashamed of him, he is my son. Under the Empire, cyborgs, along with other minority groups were subject to abuse and discrimination, and even were ruled by courts at the time not to be sentient citizens. Under the New Republic cyborgs, are accepted as part of day to day life and embraced as full citizens. For example, Mr Skywalker of the Jedi Order is a cyborg if only to a small extent, others have served in senior positions and are valuable members of the galaxy we live in now.

But onto my son and his disposition. His brain stem has been completely spliced to the computer, and the computer now forms part of his personality (one which he can deactivate if required). Neimoidia has always pursued automated weapon systems in order to save lives and allow war to be fought without massive slaughter. However, a concern that has been raised is that they lack a "soul" and so find it hard to differentiate between friend and foe, and also to assure they act morally.

It became clear to us that a way to give this soul to a computer we would in fact require a full brain stem interface, where the ships computer would form with neural connections to his brain (so for example, using his tractor beams are as natural as using his arms, after this level of integration) and the additional processing and memory space would allow him to use the mass of data created by the use of the ship.

I would highlight that this neural integration is only a step further than many commercially purchasable products and those seen on other Neimoidian ships. In that it gives the user vastly quicker uplink speeds, vastly more memory and also access to more processors. In this case, the faults of the formerly mentioned product have been ironed out and my son retains all of his personality.

He is also able to have discussions with the computers he is uplinked with and can allow them to run systems if he is busy concentrating elsewhere. For example, if he wishes to spend some leisure time playing a simulation or sleeping (which he does not require) he is able to designate computers to monitor all systems, run repairs, fly the ship and even potentially fight.

The ship itself is completely independent and can function without the Pilot, but the pilot acts like a commanding officer, instilling control, and morality. However, the pilot cannot survive without the ship, once integrated, severing my sons connections with the vessel would undoubtedly mean he would die. A crude comparison would be beheading an individual, then keeping the head alive through artificial blood supply.. while it is possible, the individual would go into extreme shock, and aside from anything else might well wish for his own death.

To my son, the ship IS part of his body, he feels and sees through its sensors, he moves with its engines, he eats by refuelling. The pilot of the ship even feels pain during the battle if his ship is hit, giving him a much better indication of how serious damage is than a flashing light, this is another system that can be de-activated if it becomes too much to cope with (by the Pilot).

All of this, the integration does make for a warship that can self-repair, react quicker, fight longer and harder and have less deaths if it is attacked or destroyed while on exploration (as the Kruus was recently) meaning less sentients die. Gentlemen, I would not want to be accused of being one to put other peoples sons in the way of danger, I would rather never see another New Republic Citizen die in combat after the loss of my son Brian. So when my own son volunteered and was held to meet the required psychiatric stability and mental fitness levels to be integrated I decided to give him my blessing. I knew my son was making the ultimate sacrafice, and would have to live on forever as a cyborg warship, but I decided I would rather my son made this ultimate dedication than hundreds of sons of Neimoidia die in battle.

Since then, he has never given me a reason to doubt him, working hard in war and in peace for the good of his people. Serving on humanitarian, peacekeeping, blockade, and anti-piracy duties in admirable fashion adhering to all tasks with gusto and heroism. He has driven imperial raiders from our space and sent pirates scurrying to their bolt holes.

Gentlemen, what is my son? Is he a warship? Is he a person? is he a cyborg? Mr Vanden, My son is a hero, and I love him. My son is the embodiment of patriotism, one who has given up the flesh to be integrated with a machine and so serve his people in perpetuity. He embodies his ships motto "Valour Always" and is arguably the greatest military hero of my people in a thousand years. No more are Neimoidians known as cowards by racist propagandists! for he has proven that all species can be heroic, all beings, no matter their level of integration with technology. He has become greater than what he is, the sum of sentient and machine and allows us all to aspire to be, like him, greater than the sum of our parts.


Moff of the Tammuz Sector
 
Artemis_VandenDate: Saturday, 09 Jan 2010, 7:28 PM | Message # 3
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I'm sorry that I misspoke on the length of the ship. It is indeed 1,750 meters, not 5,000 meters. However, to say that it is "only" 1,750 meters is, I believe, an understatement. Moving on.

It wasn't my intent to call into question your son's heroism. If he is half as valorous as was your other son, Brian Kruus, then he must be most valorous indeed. I'm sure he believes himself to be carrying on the Kruus family's tradition of patriotism, and for this the Committee respects him. However, the question was an academic one; is an organic being, in this integrated form, considered a legal person? To what extent, in your estimation, can this be reconciled with the fact that—unlike the other cyborgs you've mentioned—Ictood's "body," if you will, is a battleship? Please address this.


Artemis Vanden
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Simon_LeviDate: Saturday, 09 Jan 2010, 7:45 PM | Message # 4
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My sons body is within the battleship, just as a user of a Borg Construct Aj^6's head is within the unit. Where would you say an individual ceases to be a citizen? What if an individual loses his limbs, and they have to be replaced with robotic ones? And his internal organs cease to work, and so must be replaced with prosthetic ones.. most of his mass would be "a droid" but does that make him "a droid"?

Are we to start having courts to rule which cyborgs can vote and which cannot? as under the Empire? We are presented here with the chance to cast aside another form of discrimination, as we did specieism.

Just as an individual who had his brain transplanted into a machine to keep it alive would still be a sentient, My son is a Sentient. You cannot simply start saying that because he has a machine interface he is not sentient. Nor does history reflect well on governments who do.

I would highlight also, that My son has substancially more of his personality intact than many cyborgs, and is able to pass any sentience tests set by those in authority. The fact that he has a battleship as part of him does not change who he is. If I have a prosthetic leg, it does not change who I am, and the level of integration (unless perhaps it wipes the original mind) is irrelevant.


Moff of the Tammuz Sector
 
Artemis_VandenDate: Saturday, 09 Jan 2010, 8:26 PM | Message # 5
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Senator, there's no need to be defensive. The Committee's interest in this subject is academic, and academic only. There are no insinuations in my question that Ictood is or is not sentient—indeed, I do not doubt his sentience. However, as Ictood is sentient and, thus, as he is entitled to the Rights of Sentience, it seems to me that we are presented with a problem in how these rights are to be implemented; his case is not as simple as most cyborgs, because most cyborgs are integrated with cybernetic components or computers to augment themselves—their bodies, their intelligence, etc.—whereas your son has been integrated with a warship to augment the warship. You said yourself, the primary purpose of this project was to have a "smart ship" that could distinguish, efficiently, between friend and foe.

I believe, as you say, that Ictood is a person. There is no doubt, however, that in any objective sense he also "is" a warship. You said yourself that he feels its pain, that he uses its tractor beams as though it were his own arms, that it is a part of his personality, etc. This is, to the Committee's knowledge, a unique dilemma that has never been presented with other cyborgs. The core of my question, thus, was and is how this dichotomy of person and battleship can be reconciled.

For instance, the Rights of Sentience declare that everyone has the right to gainful employment, and a fair wage. Since your son "is" a warship, are combat, exploration, patrol, etc. to be considered his profession? If so, does he recieve a salary? I'm curious of your thoughts on this.


Artemis Vanden
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Simon_LeviDate: Saturday, 09 Jan 2010, 8:34 PM | Message # 6
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My son is paid the correct pay grade for a starship Captain, and is considered to always be on active duty so paid 24 hours a day and double time. The funds are held in his account which he can use to purchase items when in port or on the holonet. He considers himself, so far as I am aware, to be a Starship and its Captain.

I apologise if I seem defensive, but this matter is indeed one close to my own heart.


Moff of the Tammuz Sector
 
Artemis_VandenDate: Saturday, 09 Jan 2010, 10:37 PM | Message # 7
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It is perfectly understandable. I also know how it is to love one's son even if the decisions he makes in his life are difficult ones for his family to bear. Though I must admit, of course, that your dilemma is far more dramatic than most. But I digress. Thank you for your answer. I will return to the subject of labor in a moment, but I would like to address, next, another Right of Sentience which is complicated in your son's condition. That is, freedom of movement among worlds. A person has this right, but a warship certainly does not. Indeed, there are some sectors and worlds where the presence of warships is forbidden under normal circumstances, which is something I believe to be reasonable.

Would you address this specific point and, more broadly, does this instance not seem to demonstrate that there is at least one circumstance in which your son's condition as a warship deprives him of his rights as a person?

I hope you don't mind, also, that I'm using the term "condition" to refer to your son. I don't mean it in the sense of an impairment or a predicament, but rather as a state of being. I am at a loss for a better term, unless you or Ictood would prefer a different one.


Artemis Vanden
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Simon_LeviDate: Sunday, 10 Jan 2010, 9:51 AM | Message # 8
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These legal issues were taken into account, and my son has signed a contract to resolve his rights of sentience, while he has not waived any, he has agreed not to assert certain rights as part of the responsibility innate with being part of the battleship. Amongst these are freedom of movement, right to enter federal buildings (an issue raised by many large sentients) and others.

Hypothetically you could raise any number of sentients rights issues, but I would also say they do not need to be raised until they are prosecuted in a court. However, these are just the same sentients rights issues that could be applied to sentient aliens who live in deep space.

Borsk Feyla said "You refer to us as 'alien,' and the Princess calls us 'non-Human.' Why are we defined by you and in comparison to you?" because the Rights of Sentience are written with humans in mind does not mean that you can hold that a being who is not shaped or sized like you is not sentient. What of the giant beings that live in the void of space that have fought the Empire in battle? Are they held to not be sentient because they are huge and vastly powerful?

My son is not non-sentient, he is just a different form of sentient.


Moff of the Tammuz Sector
 
Artemis_VandenDate: Sunday, 10 Jan 2010, 10:16 AM | Message # 9
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Again, I did not imply that your son is not sentient. Indeed, my questions are premised on the assumption that he is sentient.

You have anticipated one of my lines of questioning, about access to public services, buildings, and so on. However, since you've mentioned a waiver of rights—or, as you've said, a contract agreement "not to assert certain rights"—I would like to return, briefly, to the subject of labor. Would you accept the following definition as a valid description of an "indentured servant"?

"A laborer under contract to an employer in exchange for their transportation, food, clothing, lodging and other necessities."

Would not Ictood's perpetual labor (as you said, he is considered on duty at all times) be considered a form of indentured servitude? He is paid a wage, yes, but he has also signed a contract forfeiting his rights, as you've said. Also, are you aware that indentured servitude is illegal under the Rights of Sentience? Also, the Viceroy Kruus, as a warship, is considered the property of Neimoidia, is it not? How can this be reconciled with the fact that a person cannot be considered property? For indeed, that would be slavery—regardless of whether it is voluntary. Your thoughts on this?


Artemis Vanden
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Simon_LeviDate: Sunday, 10 Jan 2010, 10:45 AM | Message # 10
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Mr Vanden,

I would not see this as a fair destription, my son is as you say, paid a wage. He is free to allot himself leisure time, rest time etc. Because he is paid all around the clock does not mean that he is active all around the clock.

As for the argument that he can be considered property of Neimoidia is again, one I would say is not relevant. Just as an individual member of the military who could not normally afford prostheses might be loaned them for the duration of his military service, so the non-organic components of my son are loaned to him for the duration of his life and will default to the government on his death.

As for indentured service, many member of the military make commitments for 5, 10, 20 years etc, meaning they are in effect "indentured servants" for the duration of their service? As such he is no more a slave than a New Republic serviceman who is not able to quit his enlistment until a certain date, except my son has agreed to serve for a duration of 1,000 years which is longer than his lifespan (even with his current state) and in this way is the same as a soldier issued equipment. As such he could be considered, in the same way as a soldier, an involuntary servant, but not an indentured servant.

Ultimately the mechanical components of my son remain the property of the Neimoidian Government, but as I say are loaned to him for his lifespan.


Moff of the Tammuz Sector

Message edited by Senator_Kruus - Sunday, 10 Jan 2010, 10:46 AM
 
Artemis_VandenDate: Sunday, 10 Jan 2010, 10:18 PM | Message # 11
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Senator Kruus, you'll forgive me if I'm surprised at what I've just heard. Perhaps what you've just described—the loaning of your son's "body" to him—is legal on Neimoidia, but surely it is not ethical? We're not talking about a case of loaning a canteen or a blaster to a soldier, here. I have never heard of cybernetics being loaned on a provisional basis, but if I understand you correctly, you are saying nothing less than that your son's eyes, his ears, his arms, indeed, his body and his very mind are not his property? This is most unusual, and I suggest to the Committee that it is unprecedented.

I remind you that Article III of the Rights of Sentience guarantees "security of person," which the courts have deemed to include the right "to security in and control over [one's] body." How is this possible for your son, if the components of his "body" are the property of the Neimoidian taxpayer? Loaning his body to him is not a satisfying answer—this practice is not common and, as far as I'm aware, not legal on any planet that I know of (with the apparent exception of Neimoidia). In any case, it is certainly not ethical. It seems to me, with all due respect, like a circuitous attempt to justify what is, at best, unfree labor and, at worst, a form of slavery.

Please do respond to this, before we move on.


Artemis Vanden
Representative of the Naboo
 
Simon_LeviDate: Monday, 11 Jan 2010, 6:21 AM | Message # 12
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What I am saying Mr Vanden, the part of my son that is a battleship is yes, leased to him. However, he has functional ownership over it for the duration of his life.

I am not sure if you are familiar with the concept of freehold and leasehold property? Essentially my son owns the leasehold on the ship which forms an extension of his body, however Neimoidia retains the freehold. Which means my son owns his body, may alter it in any way etc for the rest of his life. However, at his death the mechanical "body" defaults back to the Neimoidian state.

Even so, this does not well enough establish the Neimoidian legal concepts which explain the ownership here, essentially the ship is the property of my son throughout his life, and can only be removed with very lengthy legal process (if he was convicted of a significant crime etc)

I would again remind the committee chair that while this may not be common in Human cultures, the concept of an individuals biomass, if not the individual, is common if not prevalent to species which live in nests or hives that once an individual dies his body returns to the common ownership and is often ingested.

In more progressive cultures, which seek to be more acceptable to humans, such as my own, we make accomodations and as such tend to make legal accomodations (such as leasing bodies and retaining the freehold in this case) however. other cultures must bear in mind that Neimoidians are not humans. Other species, including almost all insectoid ones, such as Geonosians do consume their dead and regard the body of the dead as property in-common after death which cannot be inherited aside from to be re-integrated into the biomass of the society itself. As such my sons "body" in the form of the battleship will return to the state on his death to be re-utilised as is appropriate.

However, the fact that there is due legal process before he could be deprived of his body (tantamount to that required for the death sentence) means that this is not, in fact slavery.

Perhaps a better explanation would be the contract that is signed gives the battleship to my son, but mandates him to bequeath it to the state upon his death.

While I would highlight that this is not Slavery, it IS a great sacrafice for his people, it is giving up a normal life and it is giving your life up for state service. It is the sacrafice every soldier makes. And just because it is a form that is alien to humans, does not mean it is wrong.

I would ask the Chair to please be species-sensitive in his remarks, and consider the very specific circumstances and values of my culture, and those of cultures which are not human in general when delivering your remarks. I would also stress there are cultures where all beings, alive and dead are considered "property of the state" such as again, many insectoid species... how would the committee resolve this with regards to Article III?

I think if you are to insinuate unfair labour or slavery in this instance, you could not help asserting a wide ranging ruling against many hundreds of cultures who happen not to be human. My Son chooses to serve the species, he works within fair constraints, he picked his path and owns his body.

The committee chair should also be aware that there are near-human and indeed human species that do not offer this freedom and compel individuals into castes or select careers for them. We must be at all times tolerant and careful of others cultural and species sensitivities.


Moff of the Tammuz Sector
 
Artemis_VandenDate: Tuesday, 12 Jan 2010, 11:22 PM | Message # 13
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Senator, I admit that I am not an attorney, but I don't think I need be one to recognize that there is a difference between having the right to occupy one's body (a "leasehold") and actually owning one's body (a "freehold," which you've said is reserved to Neimoidia and not your son). Whether or not your son has de facto possession of his body does not satisfy, to me, the dilemma that he legally does not even according to Neimoidian law. However, again I am not an attorney and I do not want to focus too much on the legal implications of this case since, after all, we are here to consider its ethical implications. You've mentioned that different cultures have different standards on these matters, and this opens another avenue of inquiry.

The Rights of Sentience—a collaboration of many species, not only Humans—are intended as broad, universal principles. I hasten to add, however, that I realize consuetudo pro lege servatur provides for the accomodation of cultural practices under the law in many cases including, I assume, this one. It's also worth noting, however, that it does not protect all cultural practices, such as the brutal death penalty on Devaron which has disqualified that planet from joining the New Republic. But again, this is a legal matter.

If you are advocating, ethically, a form of cultural relativism, I think then you must take ownership of the flaws of that philosophy; namely, it denies social progress as a concept, and it admits no independent moral standards. To use, again, Devaron as an example, the feeding of criminals, alive, to ravenous beasts as a form of capital punishment would be ethical, according to cultural relativism, because that is the standard of Devaronian society. Another example, Aduba 3's infamous prejudice against cyborgs would also be ethical, again because of custom. Many holocausts could also be justified by this logic. Surely, Senator, you must concede that some absolute principles—such as the Rights of Sentience—must exist (providing, again, that cultural practices are accomodated within reason). If not, praytell what is the purpose of this Senate? Do we not make galactic laws?

The record of this hearing and, indeed, my record as a Senator will show that I am not being insensitive on this matter by any means (incidentally, Senator, I would appreciate your vote on the Species Sensitivity measure that I have proposed, but on which you have thus far been silent). I am not calling into question the propriety of Neimoidian culture. I am calling into question the integration of your son with a warship and, with respect, I do not see the relevance of hive culture in this very unique instance.

I would like you to comment, if you will, on these points and also, since you've mentioned crime and punishment I would like to raise this issue as well. If you'll please indulge me with a hypothetical, suppose that Ictood is convicted, fairly, of a crime that he has committed against another world, or persons residing thereon. Let us say his sentence is imprisonment. How is this sentence to be carried out?


Artemis Vanden
Representative of the Naboo
 
Simon_LeviDate: Wednesday, 13 Jan 2010, 11:24 AM | Message # 14
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I completely agree with Mr Vanden that the rights of sentience are necessary, especially to cultures, however, I would not of necessity consider they can always be applied to all species in every case... But again, an individual should always have the right to choose not to assert his rights, if he so wishes.

If my son did, hypothetically, get convicted of a crime, we would likely simply disable his weapons systems (or take other suitable steps to mean that he was not a threat to himself or others) and put him on cargo hauling duty. Imprisoning him would serve no use as it would simply allow his abilities to go to waste. Wheras doing service to the state is always preferable to imprisonment.


Moff of the Tammuz Sector
 
LancerNiedraDate: Wednesday, 13 Jan 2010, 5:10 PM | Message # 15
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"With Respect, Senator Kruus, I do believe that the assertion of rights is well within the abilities of an individual, but that--on the other hand--a person does not have the right to not assert his or her rights. If what you have said is correct, then the very foundation of the constitution is being subverted by the mere principle of apathy. By your own words, an 'individual should always have the right to choose not to assert' their rights, but if this is true, than by contract--as previously stated--you've stripped your son of his rights insofar that it has been legally forced upon the ability to not invoke said rights. The sole purpose of a constitution is the ability for a person or persons to have these rights available to them, and that said rights may be called upon when required. Indeed, the only instance where said rights can be waived are in matters where a convicted felon is imprisoned, losing his rights (at least to a degree) during his incarceration. By description, your son is being incarcerated for the greater good of Neimoidia, and this is a breach of the constitutional principle that rights be alloted to all peoples within the New Republic."

"I must therefore argue that a person does not have the right to not assert his or her rights, but rather, than those rights are guaranteed and can be called upon at any time. I attested that I to am not an attorney and can be committing a grave fallacy at the moment, but it occurs to me that the freedom of planetary policy and cultural protection is acceptable insofar as it does not impeach upon the freedoms of other planets and cultures. Your sons commitment to the security of Neimoidia is commendable, and truly an exemplary display of true patriotism, but the rights of his person can not be absolved, whether by contract or other."

"I realize you have previously stated that he has not waived his rights, merely abstained from asserting said rights, but as I have mentioned beforehand, this is not something that I believe is possible by the very principle of rights, because that they their purpose is to be present and guaranteed, and not to be discarded by the person or other. After all, these rights are not a property that can be discarded, but a requirement that is guaranteed"


------------------
Lancer Niedra
Representative; Corellian Assembly
Progressive Conservative Corellia for Corellians
 
Star Wars RP: A Galaxy At War Forum » Archives & Flashbacks » In Character » Select Committee on the "Viceroy Kruus" (Hearing on Ethical Implications)
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