A point to be made for the sake of settling an issue
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Toben-Domon | Date: Monday, 03 Jan 2011, 9:25 AM | Message # 1 |
Major general
Group: Users
Messages: 347
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| I regret that Crin's typist and I have come at a sort of odds, and I also regret childishly fighting via the amazing reputation decrease method. Crin's typist feels I have violated Rule 1.2, which, out of convenience, I shall repost here: "Players may have as many characters as they want. However, these characters should not go out of their way to assist one another or pool their ships, weapons, or money to the benefit of any one of these characters, or that character's organization. No two characters should have identical goals and desires." This rule is one that has been broken by players in the past and, I believe, exists in its present form for good reason. Now, here is a link to the problematic post: Link link link Ok Crin, I'd like to offer this in exchange to your argument., Rule 4.1: "In order to be represented in the Imperial Senate, a character usually must be a public figure from a particular world, then request on the Senate forum to be admitted as Senator for that world (including information on the character's goals and qualifications, and how that character was elected or selected for the job). Candidates are approved by a majority vote, once the questions and reservations of the Senate have been satisfied. Players may have as many Senate characters as they wish, but only 2 may vote on any one measure. Also, new Senators may not vote on a measure for which voting was already in progress at the time they became a Senator." If I choose to have both of my senators vote for an issue that makes sense for the good of people (as, logically speaking, most would do), then I will do so. Just because I posted my support of myself, so to speak, before anyone else did, is no violation of any rule. I am sorry you feel so threatened by my post and, if need be, I'll alter it so you feel better.
Toben Domon Senator, Sluis Van
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Toben-Domon | Date: Monday, 03 Jan 2011, 10:23 AM | Message # 2 |
Major general
Group: Users
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| From an IC point notwithstanding, the character of Toben Domon is an alien, already a minority within the Senate and as such, is likely to side with the sensible human laws if he wants to retain his position. Senator Crion, after all, was ousted from the Senate for speaking out. So, addressing: Carratos- Any Senator who didn't vote to get rid of Force users would likely come under suspicion. Valid vote. Relief aid to Chad- Really? Come on now. Voting for sending relief is a nice thing to do. Only a real dick would vote no. Ban on Fornication- That one actually does have a valid vote concerning purity of race and, bringing into play the fact that an alien Senator voted for such a proposal could well have strengthened his position in the Senate amongst the other Imperial supporters. Taungsday Observation- A small vote that made sense. See above reasons concerning showing support for Imperial voting. Motion to Censure- Crion made an idiot of himself and ran his mouth. Enough said. Investigating Vjun- Made sense, valid argument put forth by Lohden. Non-human Voting Act- Domon was originally against. Once changes were made in the Act to improve it, he changed his vote. Imperial Loyalist Committee- More kissing of Imperial arse. Biological Weapons Act- Oh, sorry. Should have voted against that one. Wait, I didn't because it was a sensible act. Balanced Budget Act- See above reason. There have actually been a number of votes that Domon has either not taken part of or simply ignored. As such, you can hardly claim it is every single issue. If an act makes sense, is legit and has a chance of making Domon look good for supporting it, odds are he is going to vote for it. Ryuun is a high supporter of Imperial thought as well, and tends to vote similarly. If you don't like it, as I said before, take it up with management. My point regarding the rules still stands.
Toben Domon Senator, Sluis Van
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Bernard_Oriel | Date: Monday, 03 Jan 2011, 10:23 AM | Message # 3 |
Colonel general
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| I have to say that personally I feel some sympathy for both sides. There is the major problem which arises especially during the empire which makes the rule problematic. 1. Everyone wants to vote for the patriotic thing and not be seen as anti-Imperial, thus many Senators would just vote the same way because it was expected of them. 2. Many worlds have overlapping interests on may areas, depending on their history, government style, etc. So for example two governments who are monarchies should vote against anti monarchy bills, for example. I believe in every case so long as a reasonable case can be made for a Senator voting in a particular way (backing another Senator fro example) then it is not unreasonable to act in this way. The rules allow for two senators, and there is an obvious conflict of interest always there between rules 1.2 and 4.1. Personally I feel so long as it does not get ridiculous (votes which are demonstrably highly against the interests or previous actions of a world) then there is no problem with this. Equally, there is no rule preventing the creation of two Senators (everyone can do it), and so long as they are roleplayed, legislate and participate in debate (For example Oriel and Ordan both have similar agendas but have disagreed at times and propose legislation independently. Equally, Anaxes and Vjun are different worlds and have regularly been used in roleplay). I do believe that it become a problem when a person (not to name names) shows no interest in developing roleplay or legislation around one character, and instead is happy to just vote in favour of their own legislation without ever participating constructively (or otherwise) in debate. That said, enforcing such a "you must use a world to vote with it" rule would enforce a kind of "elitism" within roleplay where some sort of organisation would have to be formed and standards set for what you had to do to be able to vote. And frankly, even if these were put in place.. it does not take a genius to jump through hoops if they have the time for it. Frankly, I don't think the situation is too problematic and reform isn't really needed.
Bernard Oriel Senator for the Planet of Vjun 1st Earl Malreaux (Second Creation) Vjun Delegation to the Imperial Senate
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Crin_Star | Date: Monday, 03 Jan 2011, 10:33 AM | Message # 4 |
Major general
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Messages: 313
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| I really had no interest in debating this with you and your puppet master but my points will remain. You have shown a continued and unchanged example of voting twice in the same way on every issue. With that said any further debate can be handled elsewhere away from people i have no desire to have an interaction with outside of the IC senate.
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Toben-Domon | Date: Monday, 03 Jan 2011, 10:39 AM | Message # 5 |
Major general
Group: Users
Messages: 347
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| Woah, woah. Jamie and I have had our own differences, and many of them. Hell, we clash over Ravak & Larben stuff often enough. He and I aren't ganging up on you and I see no reason to insult the guy. He's just making a valid point. You made yours, I made mine, he made his. Let's just let it go.
Toben Domon Senator, Sluis Van
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Jace_Varitek | Date: Monday, 03 Jan 2011, 12:12 PM | Message # 6 |
Generalissimo
Group: Administrators
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| Indeed, and let's be nice, please. It seems that on things like relief to Chad, biological weapons, "highly destructive ordinance," and other measures that have passed unanimously, or seem likely to pass unanimously, it would be even more unusual if Domon had voted other than he did. The other votes seem reasonably well explained here. I would like to address one point that Jamie raised, though, about the conflict between rules 1.2 and 4.1. I don't think there is one, necessarily. Using the example of two Senators representing worlds with monarchies, those Senators might both vote in defense of the principle of monarchy, but they are also voting, obviously, in defense of their own specific monarchies. In this case even those two Senators, voting the same on the same principle, don't necessarily have "identical goals and desires." I think this is demonstrated, to my satisfaction anyway, with Ryuun and Domon—they usually have very different reasons for voting as they do, and they do so on measures that clearly the typist has no personal interest in, i.e. Carratos, Taungsday, etc. I understand that this is a sensitive issue because it necessarily involves questioning someone's motives and, thus, it's highly subjective. The best way to address an issue as sensitive as this though, I think, is to bring it to the attention of moderators in private, when possible. We take these things seriously, of course.
Jace Varitek Manager/Administrator from January 2003 to Present My recent posts here, pre-2009 archives here
"When my information changes, I change my opinion. What do you do, sir?" —John Maynard Keynes
Furthermore, a dancing Wookiee:
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