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Abortion OOC
Jace_VaritekDate: Wednesday, 19 Jan 2011, 4:54 PM | Message # 1
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Ja'nar's OOC post from the Senate:

"(I am still against this being brought up here. This is a game and this issue should not have been posted here for discussion. This is a place to escape reality not to be brought face to face with it. Also I find it extremely insensitive and tasteless that this had been able to continue. You have no care for what others have had to go through in their personal lives, and this is a personal issue that touches a few of the players here. You should be ashamed of yourselves!)"

I'll respond to this a bit later tonight.


Jace Varitek
Manager/Administrator from January 2003 to Present
My recent posts here, pre-2009 archives here

"When my information changes, I change my opinion. What do you do, sir?"
—John Maynard Keynes

Furthermore, a dancing Wookiee:
 
Karth_DeQoraDate: Wednesday, 19 Jan 2011, 5:06 PM | Message # 2
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I was going to post on this; but at Jace's request I'll defer until he's had a chance to address it.

Man, Myth, Administrative God. Also plays a mean kazoo.
Jace Varitek: In Northern California we just have gangs of vigilante interior decorators.
 
VictorDate: Wednesday, 19 Jan 2011, 5:48 PM | Message # 3
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All I can say is.

Life goes on man.


Victor "The Dude" Sekel.
"The Dudely Lama"

The dude abides.
 
Jace_VaritekDate: Wednesday, 19 Jan 2011, 6:19 PM | Message # 4
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Thank you, Dude.

So, Ja'nar, as we already discussed in Messenger (I had assumed, having discussed this, it wouldn't have been necessary to bring this OOC onto the forum, but since it has then I need to respond here, obviously), I understand your feeling is that this is a place for escape, and not somewhere that you expect to be confronted with contentious OOC issues. For the most part, incidentally, "antagonizing a player's beliefs" is indeed against the rules. But I don't see this as intending to antagonize anyone's beliefs, certainly not as much as calling pro-life people who honestly oppose abortion "insensitive and tasteless." I'm pro-choice, mind you, and I don't feel as Oswaldt does, but I think he should be able to express himself here the same as anyone can, as long as he's not intending to offend people. I don't think he is, and remember also that he isn't the person who introduced abortion into AGW.

That said, yes abortion is a contentious thing, and an ugly thing—it offends some people (clearly) and makes some people feel uncomfortable. But war is ugly, genocide is ugly, gaiacide is ugly, and these are all things that the RP deals with regularly. The thing to keep in mind is it isn't real. I've solicited opinions from a lot of members and all of them seem to have the same attitude; that this is RP, and shouldn't be taken so seriously. I don't think anyone here has a monopoly on emotions when it comes to abortion. You don't have this monopoly any more than I have a monopoly on emotions when it comes to atheism—another sensitive subject that has also come up in the RP, and in Star Wars. As for the argument that abortion isn't something that concerns Star Wars, I read the Senate debate closely and saw no references to religion (and incidentally, many references to Star Wars era technologies, etc.). Under the circumstances then, I don't see why abortion can't be discussed here. For all I know, Oswaldt feels as strongly about abortion as you do, and possibly for many of the same reasons that you do. I don't know that, but supposing its true I don't see how management can require it to be deleted, thus offending one person so that another person isn't offended.

In sum, I think what's needed here isn't necessarily respect for how other people feel about this, but certainly respect for them being allowed to say how they feel about this. And it is a game, yes, but it's a game that draws inspiration from our real world, and our real lives. I wouldn't say, for example, that it's "tasteless and insensitive" for Cambrist to propose the Imperial Astrogation Museum because let's say I'm not comfortable OOC with museums—which exist in the real world. It's a silly example, but I think it illustrates the same thing. In any case, worst case scenario you don't need to take part in the discussion. Again, I'm sorry I had to post all this here, but since it had been raised on the forums I feel like it had to be responded to here too.


Jace Varitek
Manager/Administrator from January 2003 to Present
My recent posts here, pre-2009 archives here

"When my information changes, I change my opinion. What do you do, sir?"
—John Maynard Keynes

Furthermore, a dancing Wookiee:
 
Jace_VaritekDate: Wednesday, 19 Jan 2011, 6:25 PM | Message # 5
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That's my view, at least. I haven't had a chance to talk to Jory though.

Jace Varitek
Manager/Administrator from January 2003 to Present
My recent posts here, pre-2009 archives here

"When my information changes, I change my opinion. What do you do, sir?"
—John Maynard Keynes

Furthermore, a dancing Wookiee:
 
Bernard_OrielDate: Thursday, 20 Jan 2011, 2:20 PM | Message # 6
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Personally, I find the Holocaust offensive. Yet the term regularly comes up in conjunction with uses of "Base Delta Zero" or various Imperial operations.. But you don't see me voicing my offence as an excuse to stifle others freedom of speech within the role play. I think something this RP is good at (and others are very bad at (not naming names)) is this very open attitude and freedom to roleplay.

Bear in mind, there are other places where members would be instantly censored for their views. I have rped in such places and quite frankly I can say that AGW is a very nice change from this. Abortion is a very tricky issue, I personally, in real life, am very pro choice. However, I don't think this would necessarily carry over into a scifi setting where artificial uteruses exist. That said, I am digressing heavily.

I think it should be stated that it seems Oswaldt does have honest views against abortion, and I don't think its fair to attack someone ad hominem just because they are not the same as your own. I often criticise those who hold belief systems with no evidence, but I don't attack them as a person, merely the views they hold. Nobody should be ashamed of holding a point that they can obviously articulate intelligently (that is not the same as saying I agree with it).

Furthermore, it should be added that I have not had any influence on the drafting of this legislation.


Bernard Oriel
Senator for the Planet of Vjun
1st Earl Malreaux (Second Creation)
Vjun Delegation to the Imperial Senate
 
Karth_DeQoraDate: Thursday, 20 Jan 2011, 4:53 PM | Message # 7
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I'd just like to add, that as a person who's dealt with this issue in my own life, I'm not offended in the slightest, and you really shouldn't try and speak for others, it never works out well. But alas, this issue really has been blown out of proportion it seems, we should try and get beyond it.

Man, Myth, Administrative God. Also plays a mean kazoo.
Jace Varitek: In Northern California we just have gangs of vigilante interior decorators.
 
Jory_CarsonDate: Tuesday, 25 Jan 2011, 7:36 PM | Message # 8
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We have been over this before with an RP that never formally opened in which there would have been strong bias on several levels. It's RP, its fake.
 
Karth_DeQoraDate: Tuesday, 25 Jan 2011, 10:57 PM | Message # 9
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Brilliant addition, Mt.

:P


Man, Myth, Administrative God. Also plays a mean kazoo.
Jace Varitek: In Northern California we just have gangs of vigilante interior decorators.
 
BairdDate: Tuesday, 25 Jan 2011, 11:24 PM | Message # 10
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The whole racist (species) thing affects me for several reasons. But I don't let it bother me because I know, or I hope the people Rping these racist senators aren't that racist in real life.

Commander in the Grand Army of the Republic (Former)
Friend of the oppressed.
Liberator of the enthralled.
Damian Baird.
 
Johannes_OswaldtDate: Tuesday, 25 Jan 2011, 11:36 PM | Message # 11
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Yeah, i'm pro-choice actually and i'm not racist either. Its a character, people

Johannes Oswaldt
Senator and Governor of Eriadu
 
Bernard_OrielDate: Wednesday, 26 Jan 2011, 11:25 AM | Message # 12
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In all fairness, theyre more "speciesist" than racist. You dont see people judging different races amongst humans in the RP.

Bernard Oriel
Senator for the Planet of Vjun
1st Earl Malreaux (Second Creation)
Vjun Delegation to the Imperial Senate
 
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