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Undermining the Opposition OOC
Sate_PestageDate: Sunday, 23 Jan 2011, 11:13 AM | Message # 1
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I consulted with Valerian in advance last night about this thread and asked if he would be the Empire's point man. We went over it in some detail and agreed that the transmission from the liner was going to be intercepted--assuming it's using the holonet, that is, which is vigilantly controlled by the Empire. I make the holonet assumption because distress signals, for instance, are said not to reach far beyond one sector (or even one system, depending on the source you have). Considering the Monnok, for example, requested an elaborate communications network in order to prevent the Empire from shutting it down, and this had to be approved, I would think a transmission from a civilian liner over regular channels wouldn't get far if the Empire didn't want it to. It seems Valerian forgot to mention this in his post, but I ask that it be assumed to be so anyway, since we did talk about it in advance and since it's sensible anyway.

Another point; why would people panic when the Empire arrived to rescue them?


Sate Pestage
Grand Vizier of the Empire
Assistant to Emperor Palpatine
Chair of the Imperial Senate
 
ShivaDate: Sunday, 23 Jan 2011, 11:42 AM | Message # 2
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The interception is fine when it comes to the Holonet. I can only assume that other vessels nearby would have heard some of the transmission though.

As for people panicking, it only makes sense. Armed conflicts within confined spaces where civilians make easy blocking shields means bad things for civilians. While the Empire is preferable to hijackers, at least by most standards, Imperial troopers don't exactly have a reputation for compassion and saving lives as they do a reputation for efficiency and ending a threat regardless of what has to be done to end it.


Shiva
The Shadowlord
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Sate_PestageDate: Sunday, 23 Jan 2011, 12:38 PM | Message # 3
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I would contend that a luxury liner with disproportionate numbers of wealthy individuals of status wouldn't have the same experience of the Empire as a lot of the galaxy does. Wealthy and privileged persons, and nobles, aristocrats, etc. seem to do rather well under the Empire (e.g. those who live in the higher echelons of Coruscant are said to have no knowledge at all of the horrors of the underlevels, or the Empire's persecution of aliens in the Invisecs). I would assume that once the Empire shows up, these passengers would be, if anything, reassured. It's a fairly minor point, though. I didn't want to make too big a deal out of it.

Sate Pestage
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Assistant to Emperor Palpatine
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Augustus_ValerianDate: Monday, 24 Jan 2011, 9:08 PM | Message # 4
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Now, I know this is a minor thread, and I want to just let it go, but I can't bring myself to not challenge this glaring fault in the Undermining the Opposition thread. It is a simple one, the proton bomb. More precisely, it's detonation.

In the first post, this is the only description given to this proton bomb.

Quote
Behind them, in one of the crates that had been opened and resealed, the final crate, lay a proton bomb, armed and ready to detonate via remote that hung by a chain from the leader's neck.

Now, in this last post, on top of the keychain remote earlier mentioned, suddenly there was a dead-man switch involved. A dead-man switch being a device strapped to an individual usually to cause a large explosive to go off in the case of their death. So, not to mention the fact that blowing up the bridge, as I did, would have set this off, there was no mention of such device. Not the problem here, but something to point out. Then, there's this remote the surviving terrorists have on them, which I can buy and accept. Their challenge is now in getting to the bomb to set it off. No problem.

What I do have a problem with is this proximity sensor set up that had absolutely no mention, before hand. This is like me surrendering my ship to someone, allowing myself to be captured, and then, without doing the required actions, going "Oh, hey... I set the reactor to overload," and blow up the ship. It was just, unfortunately, not mentioned earlier in any fashion, so I feel that I have to challenge as I feel its unacceptable for an action like this to occur.



Captain Augustus Valerian
Star Destroyer Vanguard


Message edited by AugustusValerian - Monday, 24 Jan 2011, 9:36 PM
 
Jace_VaritekDate: Monday, 24 Jan 2011, 11:05 PM | Message # 5
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I'll reserve judgment on this until Shiva has a chance to respond. But it did occur to me that, in addition to the issue that Valerian has raised, it seems to me the fact that the hijackers stood confidently on the bridge, making demands, suggests that they didn't anticipate the Empire would be ruthless enough to blow up the bridge (if they had anticipated this, they would still be alive). From this, I'm inclined to extrapolate that there was no reason for them to anticipate needing any other sort of detonation mechanism. I'm willing to give some leeway here, but three detonation mechanisms seems rather a lot when only one was mentioned originally.

A proximity detonator also strikes me as a bit odd. For one thing, there would be no need for a remote detonator or a dead man's switch since the bargaining chip, clearly, would be "if you board us, the bomb will explode." But the fact that it's a proximity detonator means it's going to explode no matter what eventually (there was no way of deactivating the proximity detonator mentioned in the post). So even if only one of the hijackers are made aware of this, that one hijacker would have to know, surely, that setting up this proximity detonator is suicidal? That calls into doubt, though, what the purpose of this hijacking was—if it's to make demands of the Imperials and, in exchange, free the hostages, blowing up the ship isn't going to get the hijackers what they want or free the hostages. But speaking of suicide, in one of the earlier posts the remaining hijackers make a run for the bomb, apparently trying to detonate it before the Imperials can get to it and disarm it. But why, if it's a proximity detonator? And also, are we to believe that all of these people are willing to commit suicide for the Separatist cause 9 years after the war is over? I can maybe see this one person who set up the proximity detonator being suicidal, okay. But all of them? The narration of the post says that these guys don't die unless there's something to be gained by it—but what's to be gained by blowing up themselves and a luxury liner full of innocent people? This would have to occur to one of them, at least, and if it occurs to even one of them, and if that person was you, wouldn't you do what you could to stop your fellow hijackers from killing you along with themselves? (up to and including shooting them in the back as they hurry to blow up the bomb?). Now, I get that suicide looks pretty good when your alternative is being captured and tortured by the Empire. That makes sense, but what doesn't make sense to me is why, when it seems the Imperials are going to get to the bomb first and, thus, their suicide attempt is foiled, the remaining hijackers don't turn their guns on themselves but, instead, barricade themselves in a conference room to resist the Imperials to a man. Now, suicide doesn't seem to be the priority but, rather, killing as many Imperials as possible. Or was that, and not suicide, the actual idea of blowing up the bomb before the Imperials got to it? Here, again, the problem is these hijackers having no regard for their own lives. And yes, hijackers with no regard for their own lives is a concept that all Americans are familiar with, but the vast majority of hijackings have not been suicide hijackings, and certainly in this case there's no reason why Shiva's men would believe there are virgins waiting for them in the next life. I do get that Shiva would have sent some of his most fanatical men on a mission like this, but those must have been the men sealed on the bridge and making the demands, surely?

So, despite how all that sounded, I really am reserving judgment here until Shiva gets a chance to post on this. I just figured I'd post that so he can know where my questions and concerns are here as he does post.


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Furthermore, a dancing Wookiee:
 
ShivaDate: Sunday, 30 Jan 2011, 4:22 PM | Message # 6
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I'll give Valerian the point that the redundant trigger mechanisms are a bit excessive, yes. There is a lot to address here, so I'll try to go through and make sure I address everything.

Yes, the hijackers were confident that the Empire would not destroy the bridge and indeed, gave their orders confidently. In the case of the deadman's switch and proximity detonator, such does make sense. Even if the bridge had not been fired upon, there is still greater than 50% chance that Imperials, having greater numbers and resources, would board and be able to clear out the hijackers. In the event of the leader's death and his corpse and gear being unrecoverable or if the deadman's switch was unable to be triggered, the proximity detonator would give them time to arm and escape the vessel via lifeboat. Incidentally, the means to deactivate the bomb's detonators are actually simple if you look at the construction. Simple ion blasts, either from without by the Imperials or in the form of ion grenades, would have done such. Personally, I find it hard to believe that with present-day advancements in bomb-sniffing (if you'll pardon the term) robots and the like that the Imperials wouldn't use some sort in a case where a bomb could be present; instead sending living people in to do the job.

The hijackers were meant to be unaware that the bomb had a proximity sensor. Shiva's point was not to gain money or free hostages, it was meant to make the people of the Empire assume Vjunite extremists seized a vessel, demanded a ransom and then, through some accident or on purpose, blew it up. It was meant for blame and suspicion to be cast on Vjun and further the Vjun-Volus conflict. The hijackers, in effect, were duped. They never assembled the bomb; that was on Shiva's explosives expert, who rigged it and it was one of the items smuggled on-board.

As to the people who barricaded themselves in: with as many troops pouring into the ship, it would be obvious that getting close to the bomb would be impossible. They had no plans on suicide initially, so the end result is to sell their lives as dearly as possible. Their choices are either to surrender and face Imperial justice, torture and eventually, a death that likely looks mild when compared to the aforementioned ordeals. Or they can kill as many Imperials as possible and then take their own lives. The second method seems preferable to me, personally.

I'm willing to modify the post(s) as need be.


Shiva
The Shadowlord
The Lightbringer
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Augustus_ValerianDate: Sunday, 30 Jan 2011, 5:25 PM | Message # 7
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I still have a problem with the proximity sensor on it. From a writing standpoint, at least some mention of it would have been expected if it were to see any sort of use. Also, when the bomb was activated, wouldn't they have triggered the bomb? Would there not, also, be too much risk of a.) a crewman wandering into the cargo hold or b.) a crewman, or passenger, attempting to hide in there during the takeover?


Captain Augustus Valerian
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ShivaDate: Sunday, 30 Jan 2011, 6:56 PM | Message # 8
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I believe there was mention of a delay between the droid brain's activation and when the hijackers were in the cargo hold. Even if it had been a crewman, passenger or hijacker who triggered it, the result would have been the same to Shiva. It was less a matter of who triggered it an how many lives were lost as it was that someone asking for Vjun hostages to be released and making demands created mass disturbance. If they took lives with it, all the better for Shiva's purposes.

Shiva
The Shadowlord
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Augustus_ValerianDate: Sunday, 30 Jan 2011, 7:13 PM | Message # 9
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Until the mentioning of the proximity sensor and thus detonation of the bomb, there was no mention of a droid brain at any point. The entire droid brain and link to a proximity sensor as a method of detonation wasn't made until this post in which it was detonated. I know it seems trivial, but I feel that at this point all of the methods of detonation should have been mentioned in the previous posts; and certainly no new methods should be added now that the ship has been boarded and the troops are moving about.


Captain Augustus Valerian
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ShivaDate: Sunday, 30 Jan 2011, 7:17 PM | Message # 10
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I'll admit fault at being bad at posting everything ahead of time. I'd had it all sorted out in the thought process. I'm willing to rework the post so the Imperials have the chance to sniff out the bomb so to speak, if that's preferable.

Shiva
The Shadowlord
The Lightbringer
Separatist High Commander (former)
 
Jace_VaritekDate: Monday, 14 Feb 2011, 2:44 PM | Message # 11
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I'm a bit late in posting on this, as I was asked to. First, thanks for addressing my concerns, Shiva. In my experience though, yes, Player A is required to state this sort of thing in advance, and if Player A doesn't and Player B doesn't want to cut Player A any slack, there's no choice but to enforce it strictly. Since Augustus isn't giving ground here, it seems to me that means there can't be a proximity detonator involved that wasn't mentioned in advance. It's possible other managers may differ on this, but I think what I've described is basically S.O.P. in a turn based RP.

Jace Varitek
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My recent posts here, pre-2009 archives here

"When my information changes, I change my opinion. What do you do, sir?"
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Furthermore, a dancing Wookiee:
 
Jace_VaritekDate: Monday, 14 Feb 2011, 8:13 PM | Message # 12
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Although, just to clarify so I don't set a bad precedent here, if Player A forgets to specifically mention something but it's something that, obviously, the character would have done (i.e. putting on a spacesuit before going into a vaccuum, raising shields when entering a battle, turning on a lightsaber before using it to deflect a laser, etc.) then I think lenience needs to be shown to Player A whether or not Player B wants to. In that instance, it's just a case of the RP proceeding logically. I wanted to mention that even though it's not really relevant to this thread; a proximity detonator isn't something obvious, especially when an alternate detonation device was mentioned.

Jace Varitek
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My recent posts here, pre-2009 archives here

"When my information changes, I change my opinion. What do you do, sir?"
—John Maynard Keynes

Furthermore, a dancing Wookiee:
 
ShivaDate: Friday, 18 Feb 2011, 6:29 AM | Message # 13
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Alrighty. I will drop the proximity detonator. It's safe to assume his Imperials saved the ship and Shiva's men were killed; if not by the Imperials then by their own hands. None would be willing to go alive.

Shiva
The Shadowlord
The Lightbringer
Separatist High Commander (former)
 
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