Right. So....this cracked me up.....

Ilanah_Thanatos

Date: Friday, 15 Feb 2013, 7:05 AM | Message # 1

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http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2013/02/battle-of-hoth/

Yes, Jace, it's safe to open. smile

Ilanah R. Thanatos
Senator of Chandrila

Karth_DeQora

Date: Friday, 15 Feb 2013, 9:17 AM | Message # 2

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The article made me chuckle, the comments below made me laugh. Still a good read either way.

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Bernard_Oriel

Date: Friday, 15 Feb 2013, 1:30 PM | Message # 3

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On the attack

Wrong - they abandoned the Shield Generator; I don't know when the Ion Cannon was abandoned but it still worked over a decade later so I'd be guessing late-ish. The lack of air support wasn't actually intentional, General Veers was an extremely driven commander who took his Blizzard Force through terrain the other commanders thought unsafe (actually losing several walkers on the way: "three vehicles of Colonel Starck's group were lost to ice crevasses in the Kerane Valley") in order to arrive at the rebel base first.

(A British example, of people just doing their tough job (how we see and how we empathize for our military in general) with command chain mistakes leading to a bad outcome. Something I enjoy persistently btw is the generally good conduct and lack of zealotry in the British military, they did their duty but rarely had any pretensions to any ideology for themselves - hence the military is much less political here)

This has been attributed as the reason that the AT-AA (anti-aircraft guns) were not on the scene at the initial encounter, as they had to take a somewhat longer (but safer) route. Veers' overconfidence in the ability and protection of his own heavy walkers armour lead him to attack with little anti air support, and what he did have at his disposal (a squad of anti-air troopers) he chose not to deploy; likely because they'd not be able to keep up with his walkers).

As for true "air support" the Imperial TIE Fighters and Bombers were largely busy engaging rebel escapees and their escorts. Add to this that TIEs aren't really optimal for engaging other targets in atmosphere and that the Imperial doctrine at the time is to use ground based anti-air defenses and you see where the Empire is coming from. Basically it's not unreasonable that the Empire didn't have atmospheric fighters.

On storming

I don't think this is a bad decision to be honest. Bombardment is extremely effective and sure that was the initial plan, but the chance to capture Rebel prisoners/material/data is completely worth making a ground assault. Tbh they ended up capturing a hell of a lot of stuff, including some high up prisoners etc. Sure initially -if- they could've wiped them out from orbit then sure, cut off the head of the snake. But if half has escaped anyway then you've got to storm the place - in addition the Ion Cannon needed capturing before the fleet could move into bombardment range anyway.

Blockade
The blockade's initial cohesiveness was disrupted by the Ion Cannon's volleys upon it's lead vessels. Once it was able to reform it did succeed in capturing or destroying 13 of the 30 standard gr-75 transports present. Add to this each of those transports had at least two fighters escorting it, that's a fair little group of fighters the main blockade is concentrating on eliminating in a lengthy engagement (26 fighters is enough to provoke an extensive dogfight with skilled pilots). One of the civilian transports leaving suffers heavy damage. Plus all (6+) of the bigger Kleeque-class transports are captured or destroyed - eliminating the majority of the Material evacuated as well as much of the Infantry.

The Falcon's escape is improbable and due to a variety of convenient factors (asteroids etc). Tbh, ISDs aren't optimal for intercepting such a small freighter, and it's agility combined with insufficient fighter coverage (since most of the fighters were escorting the Rebel military escorts and transports) is the only (still slightly shaky) point you could assert for this.

It should be noted as well, that of the Imperial initial fleet of ISDs, five were destroyed, immobilized or crippled. Considering Death Squadron (as a rule) had circa 30, that's 1:6 casualties. A modern fighting unit is considered ineffective if 10% strength is down, 1:6 is closer to 16% and so represents a likely extremely difficult to overcome hole in their numbers; plus lets be honest, on a human scale the surviving bridge crews must have been pretty shaken up by the point theyre pursuing the falcon.

As for Luke's fighter, it's a single fighter on an escape vector. It's not escorting anything and there are more prime targets that are. I don't think its unreasonable that a high speed fighter like Luke's be able to avoid any minimal pursuit that was sent before he jumped to lightspeed.

To give an analogy; if you're a 16th century Buccaneer blockading a port in the Caribbean for it's Treasure Galleons, you don't prevent a small Brig or Ketch from escaping the port if they clearly pose no threat and aren't your primary objective. You're trying to maximize your gains and a single fighter is just insignificant.

General observations

The storming was fine; plenty more troopers available.

The loss of at least half Blizzard Force (the Elite heavy armoured assault unit) plus Veers being injured wasn't really okay. A case of (too often seen in the Empire) hybris leading to high losses, sending elements of it through unsafe terrain was an inappropriate decision. While the crippled Veers was hailed as a hero (they needed a hero) he really acted quite foolishly (albeit admittedly in a heroic manner); Veers never really had much of a career after this though.

Hoth was certainly somewhat phyrric, but gave the Empire a propaganda victory, deprived the rebels of considerable men and material, and also took their most sophisticated military transports away. Certainly a win.

Bernard Oriel
Senator for the Planet of Vjun
1st Earl Malreaux (Second Creation)
Vjun Delegation to the Imperial Senate

Ilanah_Thanatos

Date: Friday, 15 Feb 2013, 1:58 PM | Message # 4

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Or you could just take it as the giggle fest it is and not over analyze it? Silly Jamie. smile

Ilanah R. Thanatos
Senator of Chandrila

Jace_Varitek

Date: Friday, 15 Feb 2013, 7:25 PM | Message # 5

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Let's not forget the power generator itself. A single generator capable of powering the Echo Base shield, plus Echo Base's defenses, plus the base itself (think of the heating!), is extremely valuable to a resource-strapped rebellion that depends on self-sufficiency for its "hide in the middle of nowhere" strategy. There's actually a short story specifically devoted to the Rebellion's efforts to capture that power generator. In addition to a planetary ion cannon, it's a serious loss for the Rebellion.

(Yes, Echo Base also had a reactor buried underground. Whether the power generator we see or the base's reactor generated more power than the other doesn't really matter here since the Rebels lost the reactor along with Echo Base. Still worked almost ten years later though, but I digress).

Still, the point of the article stands. An Imperial win or not, it was a fiasco. Jamie basically makes the same case, just for different reasons than the person who wrote the article.

Jace Varitek
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Bernard_Oriel

Date: Friday, 15 Feb 2013, 11:50 PM | Message # 6

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Tbh. The battle -as depicted- in the film wasnt an awful disaster. The various eu stuff added on are what has made it so.

Bernard Oriel
Senator for the Planet of Vjun
1st Earl Malreaux (Second Creation)
Vjun Delegation to the Imperial Senate

Jace_Varitek

Date: Saturday, 16 Feb 2013, 11:11 AM | Message # 7

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Debatably. The article seems to be based on what we see in the film which, at the very least, is contradictory. Planning to bombard the base only to embark on a ground assault for instance, with no explanation and no bombardment ever witnessed. We also see no rebel transports captured or destroyed, and no high-level rebels captured either. (Echo Base appears to be deserted, whereas on the Tantive IV we see prisoners being marched away, etc. Vader throttles nobody in Echo Base that we see). The implication from the film itself is that Echo Base is a total loss for the rebels and a lot of them die defending it, but by-and-large the survivors all escape.

In my view, the EU content makes it less of a fiasco. We learn, at least, that the orbital bombardment did occur once Vader's forces succeeded in planting a targeting beacon. (Doesn't seem necessary, but whatever. Plus Echo Base is still around years later, but again, whatever). We also learn the fact you cited, that a few rebel transports were indeed captured and destroyed. We also learn another fact you cited; namely, why Veers is attacking Echo Base by himself without air support. At least we know from the EU that the lack of air support wasn't a complete tactical oversight.

P.S. Not deploying anti-air troopers because they wouldn't keep up with the walkers? AT-AT's do have openings that would function adequately as arrowslits (doors, maintenance hatches, etc.); it'd be easy to fire a PLEX launcher at the snowspeeders, but we don't see this. Not that this is scientific, but if you've played the Hoth level on Battlefront II against someone else, you know the difference that one person on an AT-AT with a PLEX launcher can make.

We additionally know from the EU about the TIE fighters being preoccupied with the rebel transports and the rebel fighter escorts, none of which we see in the film. We also know about Death Squadron being larger than we see and having been thrown into disarray on account of the ion cannon. All things considered here, I think the EU (crying, makeup running down its face) is desperately trying to explain what we see on screen and does a pretty good job of it.

Jace_Varitek

Date: Saturday, 16 Feb 2013, 11:14 AM | Message # 8

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P.P.S. In the Hoth level on Battlefront II, anyone ever use a rebel missile trooper to place proximity mines all over your snowspeeder, then fly it into an AT-AT? One hit kill. Never gets old, especially in multiplayer.

Savrek_Eclipse

Date: Saturday, 16 Feb 2013, 2:05 PM | Message # 9

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Did you take into account the references that state how highly competitive Palpatine made the Imperial Military so that they basically had officers trying to one up each other. I see that more as a reason as to why Veers would want to assault the base on his own, or why the TIE squadrons would probably be more focused on going after the other fighters and transports rather than giving air support.

Savrek Eclipse
Eclipse Anti-Alien League

Message edited by Savrek_Eclipse - Saturday, 16 Feb 2013, 2:05 PM

Liaric

Date: Saturday, 16 Feb 2013, 5:22 PM | Message # 10