OOC: Contrary to popular belief

Mr_Pluto_Cratwright

Date: Tuesday, 23 Feb 2010, 11:00 AM | Message # 1

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http://www.agalaxyatwar.com/forum/2-840-1

Okay.. so I am going to get Mathematicsy here.

So were dealing with 2 ISD's here that are being rammed by ships going to lightspeed at the point they do so.

Okay... now...

In ESB we see a Star Destroyers Bridge explode despite shielding when hit by a 70m asteroid.

So if the asteroid is a sphere (which is roughly is) it would have a volume of 1,436,755.04024 cubic/m

Now lets assume its a really solid rock, we will use granite. So that is 2.5 tons per square meter. 3,591,887.6006 tons then as the mass of the asteroid.

Now lets assume the rock is going the full speed of an ISD… 60 MGLT

1 MGLT is approximately 1/1,000,000 of a lightyear, which would be equal to 1,097 km/hour. That means its going at 65,820 km/hour (18.3km/s).

So just a bit of background here, hitting the earth head on this would result in a crater deeper than the Empire State Building and 3km across, not to be sneezed at.

Anyway back to the math…

So we need the kinetic energy…

kinetic energy = 1⁄2 × mass × speed2

kinetic energy = 1/2 x 3,591,887,600.6 kg x (18,300m/s2) = 6,014,436,192,824,670,000 Joules

So the upper-limit of an ISD’s shield protection can then be taken to deflect an object with an energy of <6,014,436,192,824,670,000 Joules

That’s pretty impressive eh?

Yes Jamie!

Whats that in real-world explosives I wonder? 1.4 Gigatons... thats 28 times the biggest explosion ever (Tsar Bomba), This is equivalent to 39,200 times the combined power of the two nuclear explosives used in World War II; Little Boy (13-18 kilotons) and Fat Man (21 kilotons), the bombs that destroyed Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

However, this raises an interesting question... since nuclear weapons have been designed up to 100 Megatons and even reportedly 250 Megatons... then it is certainly viable that Nuclear missiles could be used as a viable weapon to attack a Star Destroyer.

Something i'd not considered before! But there is canon precedent!

Now... lets work out masses for the ramming ships.

This is where it gets a bit crude

The Space shuttle is

Size
Length
56.1 m
Width
8.69 m
Mass
2,030 tons (2,030,000 kg)

The Freighter (a basis XTS one)
Technical specifications
Length
120.9 meters
Width
75.56 meters
Height/depth
34 meters

Right.. the Shuttle is just under 36.2 (36.185383244206773618538324420677) tons a meter of length.

So the freigher is 120.9 m long..

so if its the same width as the shuttle its mass is just under 4275 tons (4374.8128342245989304812834224599 tons)

but its considerably more heavily constructed (not a light vessel designed to escape the earths gravity with our primative technology, rather this vessel is more akin to the construction of a container vessel, but for the sake of argument I will assume its constructed of the same materials)

and is roughly 8.7 (8.6950517836593785960874568469505) times wider.. so that brings its weight up to at least 38039.224137400540297717580598504 tons (henceforth for convenience refered to as 38039 tons)

38039 tons then for the Mass of the ramming freighter.

So what speed is it going? its jumping to lightspeed, so it could be anywhere in between its sublight maximum speed (17MGLT and Lightspeed).

Lets take then the rough mid-point of half of lightspeed.

We need the kinetic energy…

kinetic energy = 1⁄2 × mass × speed2

So Kinetic energy = 1/2 x 38,039,000 kg x (14,989,622,900.00 squared) = 4.273468530496226 x (e to the power of 23) = 4,273,468,530,496,226,000,000,000,000 Joules

Ramming ship at Half Lightspeed: 4,273,468,530,496,226,000,000,000,000 Joules
Asteroid Energy Hitting at 60MGLT: 6,014,436,192,824,670,000 Joules

So the Kinetic Energy of the Freighter at half-light speed is 710,535,184 times that of the asteroid, even if its made of solid rock.

A fun fact is that a football (american) at half light speed has a kinetic energy of 44,937,758,936,840,880,000 Joules x7 that of the Asteroid..

So maybe I calculated it going a bit fast? So maybe its jumping to light speed, its say at… 100th the speed of light? More fair?

That still produces 170,938,741,219,849,040,000

Freighter at 1/100 of light speed: 170,938,741,219,849,040,000 Joules
Asteroid Energy Hitting at 60MGLT: 6,014,436,192,824,670,000 Joules

Maybe I am still thinking too fast, heck maybe they only just started jumping to light speed? 1/1000th of light speed?

Freighter at 1/500 of light speed: 6,837,549,648,793,960,000 Joules
Asteroid Energy Hitting at 60MGLT: 6,014,436,192,824,670,000 Joules

And still above the Asteroid!

Thus I submit, that both freighters jumping to light speed, in both cases, would have overloaded the Shields of the Star Destroyers, if not annihilated them.

On that basis I contest Cross post stating "The damage to both Star Destroyers were not as extensive as the enemy believed them to be, for both ships still had their shields, although they were starting to weaken" damage atleast the equivalent to the (frankly generous) damage afforded in my post, if not their complete destruction.

I rest my case your honours.

Post script:

I realise that I am only taking the kinetic energy into account, and not the simply huge (as in planet destroying) quantity of radiation produced...

I also realise I have not accounted for the Quantum effects of travelling over 1/3rd of light speed such as time-dialation or Gamma factors which would increase the KE of anything going that speed in practical terms by atleast a factor of 10.

After sharing my workings with a UK Government explosives ballistics science intern...

Mr M says:
you shouls suggest they go fornicate themselves with a stick if they choose to disagree with you
the star destroyer shoudl be royally f***ed at best
Mr M says:
tiny little pieces would be an apt description
Mr M says:
imagine a sheet of ice, that has been shot with a minigun for a good half hour
then cut each little bit in half
then in half again for good measure
then you approach how it should be

Mr Pluto Cratwright
Consultant Neurosurgeon
______________________
Chair of the Imperial College of Medicine
Fellow of the Imperial Academy of Science and Methodology
Editor of "The Imperial Journal of Psychiatric Medicine"

Message edited by Mr_Pluto_Cratwright - Tuesday, 23 Feb 2010, 11:48 AM

Jaboa_Mereel

Date: Tuesday, 23 Feb 2010, 7:03 PM | Message # 2

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Covering the damage to the Merciless, I will admit, I did underplay it. For that I apologize and I can give a re-write. I will take the damage to the superstructure. I will even take the engines being down. However, that can't stop it from being able to jump into hyperspace. And on the damage itself, this is already a cloudy issue, for a ship would have to be accelerated to lightspeed to make this damage you're trying to argue for, not accelerating into it as would be actually happening. Also, this design you refer to has absolutely no canon existence, thus it is a custom craft, thus need requesting in the first place, especially due to some of the features you're stating on it, such as automation and apparently its hyperdrive ignores safety parameters when told to immediatly continue on to its destination.

On the Iron Fist, different story. I will argue heavily against the level of damage you're trying to claim on it. There is evidence, in the films, that ships can exit hyperspace shielded. My example is ANH. The Millenium Falcon comes out of hyperspace, and quickly rocks from a strike from an glancing hit from an asteroid. If they were unshielded, even that glancing hit would of ended the trip, instead they kept on keeping on. Han even guess that an asteroid strike brought them out of hyperspace early, not knowing Alderaan is the asteroid field he is in, showing that this kind of event can obviously happen with survival. Without shields, this couldn't be survivable. And secondly, your statement of any ramming, or as I believe you stated it, my ship dropping from hyperspace into the craft, is a complete auto. Why? Because the ship was stated as coming in below the fight, thus the convoy. So, it would have been clear no matter what from a collision. Even if it were struck, it would not cause any critical damage. The Partical Shields can be lowered in a specific area, such as a hanger, to allow exit, and in fact making the rest of the shield stronger...along the same concept of layering energy shield power towards a certain section of the ship. And it's just a damn YT-class freighter, shockwaves from such damage is not going to damage the reacter. This ship itself would have to go through several decks first to even have debris from the impact begin striking the reactor itself.

Alor'ad Jabo'a Mereel
Striil Ori'ramikade

Message edited by JaboaMereel - Tuesday, 23 Feb 2010, 7:08 PM

Mr_Pluto_Cratwright

Date: Tuesday, 23 Feb 2010, 7:45 PM | Message # 3

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Still, I am not willing to acknowledge any less the the very moderate damage stated in my posts.

On the Iron Fist... even if I assume for arguments sake that a ship comes out of hyperspace shielded (which I would argue it does not, but it does have navigational deflectors up).. The move itself is not an auto, It was stated, and indeed you had time to reply with a Defence, counter etc. In fact you took many days beyond the posting deadline, while you rped elsewhere, so were skipped, several times.

"And it's just a damn YT-class freighter, shockwaves from such damage is not going to damage the reacter. This ship itself would have to go through several decks first to even have debris from the impact begin striking the reactor itself." - Jaboa

If you actually read my workings, at only half of Lightspeed a football would have the energy to travel through a SD's shields and hull, catastrophically. Even if the ship has a low mass, due to the size of the speeds involved this is of little consequence the multiplier is so high, not to mention the fact that both Star Destroyers would become massive nuclear fireballs from forces vastly greater than those inside an atomic bomb. Even if I was generous and assumed the freighter broke up on impact (which according to physics, it wouldn't) the massive energy of even the fragments would be enough to penetrate many hundreds of decks. I am able to supply mathematical reinforcement for this assertion if required.

But being a reasonable man, I am happy not to call this, and will accept both vessels being crippled, unshielded, but fundamentally salvageable and functional. The shield generators would likely be twisted lumps of metal that would have exploded at the point of impact due to massive feedback.

Augustus_Valerian

Date: Tuesday, 23 Feb 2010, 8:05 PM | Message # 4

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You're going to have to educate me. What are navigational deflectors? I don't recall any such technology of such a name and can not find the existence of any from a reliable source.

And yes, the Iron Fist is a auto. It was clearly stated to be coming in underneath the battle. That would be underneath the convoy, where no ships would be, and yet you're saying that suddenly there are ships not only along its path but underneath it as well. Thats a complete change in location and stellar altitude from what I stated as the ship's emergence point, thus an auto'd event.

Captain Augustus Valerian
Star Destroyer Vanguard

Mr_Pluto_Cratwright

Date: Tuesday, 23 Feb 2010, 11:32 PM | Message # 5

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" Just below all the action, the Iron Fist, and Imperial-I Star Destroyer, dropped in from hyperspace, its guns faced upwards, shields set, and it began firing into the MC40 and the Assassin Corvette. While the offensive weaponry did the work, the two Heavy Ion Cannon turrets and all sixty ion cannons began firing into the convey" - Cross

So your post stated that it was "below the action", implying it was below the ISD Merciless, however, the MC40 and the Assassin were stated as being above the Merciless. This draws me to the conclusion that it must have been within weapons range of the MC40 and the Assassin, meaning it was not actually, dramatically outside the plane of battle.

"several freighters were manouvering underneath the Star Destroyer Merciless as it* jumped in, resulting in one major colission with the terrace of the Star Destroyer from a YT-2000, likely causing severe damage to the undefended ship as it was unsheilded hyperspacing in and launching fighters."

*The Iron fist

Thus it does not seem unreasonable, that the Iron Fist, underneath the Merciless, but not a long distance from (or it would not be within weapons range), might be in the flight path of the ship jumping to hyperspace which was one of a number going undearneath the Merciless. Equally the scattering freighters could hardly be considered part of the battle. As such "below the action" would in this case rather imply to me below the combat, not below the scatter of freighters spread around the field, and if it was beyond them, it would not have been able to immediately fire upon the MC40 and Assassin.

However, you were given the correct amount of time, and indeed several posting warnings from myself, and chose not to make a defensive post, objection or statement within the alloted timeframe.

Leading me to post

The Iron Fist was also in trouble, badly, its shields had not been active as it launched its fighters and simultaniously with this event the YT-2000 slammed into the terrace, through the terrace, down down through the decks, through the reactor core, through the other side of the reactor core and only then did it disintegrate.

"The Iron Fist was also in trouble, badly, its shields had not been active as it launched its fighters and simultaniously with this event the YT-2000 slammed into the terrace, through the terrace, down down through the decks, through the reactor core, through the other side of the reactor core and only then did it disintegrate. "

Also by Navigational Deflectors I refer to shift shield.

Message edited by Mr_Pluto_Cratwright - Tuesday, 23 Feb 2010, 11:38 PM

Jace_Varitek

Date: Wednesday, 24 Feb 2010, 0:22 AM | Message # 6

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It seems to me that the damage would be more or less as Jamie has said it is. Considering the math involved (and setting aside the OOC propriety of a "hyperspace attack" generally), I think it's a rather good deal to be able to fly those two Star Destroyers out of there, on their own power, before Republic reinforcements arrive. The reactor on the Iron Fist should need to be shut down rather quickly, I think, but for the sake of fairness enough power should be allowed for the ship to hyperspace away with the Merciless and the Lancers to a place where it can safely effect repairs.

As for shift shields, are these not simply particle shields? It might be a slang term.

I'm somewhat sympathetic to Cross' point about the droid pilots overriding the hyperdrive. Heaven knows, the B1 droids are portrayed as dumb enough to do something like this, but even so it'd have been preferable to see a mention in advance of Neimoidian freighters being automated in this way. I'm not making much of an issue out of it, however, because I realize the canon does portray the Neimoidians as rather heavily reliant on droids and, thus, it isn't farfetched. Doesn't mean I have to like it though.

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