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Restriction of Aggressive Military Forces (Planetary) Act
Bernard_OrielDate: Saturday, 20 Nov 2010, 8:52 PM | Message # 1
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Restriction of Aggressive Military Forces (Planetary) Act


It has come to my attention that Planetary Navies are in possession of certain craft which can only be intended for invasion. This is an egregious violation, member fleets should undoubtedly not be able to invade other worlds. This is an act to assure that no world can invade another, this is an act to prevent orbital bombardment of one world by another, this is an act to assure that money is not wasted on aggressive military forces.

This act allows all worlds to maintain a reasonable level of defence, and also to have a robust and reasonable capacity to react to crises, in addition to the ability to take part in boarding actions and act as part of a peacekeeping force.

Definition
A "vessel" is defined for the purpose of this act as a "mobile spacecraft". This does not apply to space stations or other immobile facilities.
An "armoured vehicle" is defined for the purpose of this act as "any craft which is designed to serve in combat which is not a mobile spacecraft"

Thus I propose the following regulations.

1. Fleets may not have more than 400 Marines permanently stationed aboard a vessel. Permits for larger numbers may be granted in a situation which requires larger numbers of troops to be present by an Imperial Sector Moff.
2. Ships may not carry more than 20 armoured vehicles in one vessel. Permits for larger numbers may be granted by a Sector Moff in exceptional circumstances.
3. Particle Cannons, Plasma Cannons or Railguns (or any other weapons which fire a projectile down a barrel more than 5x the length of the projectile) which have a barrel diameter of more than 10 inches are to be considered Orbital Strike Cannons, these aggressive weapons and are prohibited under Section 2E of the Capital Ships Act.
This does not include Torpedoes or Missiles which
A) Travel under their own power and B ) Contain independent circuitry from the launching vessel (thus simple shells/plasma blasts are not permitted to take this exemption)
or C) Have a yield equal to or less than that of 5 Standard Turbolaser Blasts.

4. Planetary fleets may not carry portable military installations of any kind. Permits for these may be granted at the discretion of a Sector Moff if a state of emergency is declared.
5. The use of Disruptors by local forces is prohibited.


Bernard Oriel
Senator for the Planet of Vjun
1st Earl Malreaux (Second Creation)
Vjun Delegation to the Imperial Senate


Message edited by Bernard_Oriel - Sunday, 29 Jan 2012, 11:30 PM
 
Crin_StarDate: Saturday, 20 Nov 2010, 9:18 PM | Message # 2
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"Always nice to see you trying to weaken planetary defenses. We have already agreed to your proposal once which put every planet in danger and I say not again. Where will it end senator when our ships are no longer allowed to carry any single weapon what-so-ever? Or when the weapons they carry couldn't singe the paint of a star fighter? How many times must we weaken our planetary defenses so that YOU can sleep better at night senator? Get over yourself and your ideas for other planets to follow these arbitrary and weakening laws.

I clearly vote against this measure. In short senator, back off planetary defenses. If you want YOURS run a certain way fine but don't try to impose your will onto other planets."

Message edited by Crin_Star - Saturday, 20 Nov 2010, 9:19 PM
 
Bernard_OrielDate: Saturday, 20 Nov 2010, 9:23 PM | Message # 3
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If this Act is passed it is not my "will" it is the will of the Senate, and by extension the Empire as a whole. Perhaps you distrust this democracy after your own recent repeal was defeated by a supermajority.

Perhaps the Senator of Volus could highlight to me where any "defensive" weapon is forbidden in this act?

Are huge numbers of assault troops defensive?

Are huge numbers of armoured vehicles mounted on a battleship defensive?

Are orbital bombardment cannons defensive?

Are mobile garrison bases defensive?

Are disruptors and other outlawed inhumane and horrifically damaging weapons defensive?

Explain Senator Star how this strips a world of any "defences"?


Bernard Oriel
Senator for the Planet of Vjun
1st Earl Malreaux (Second Creation)
Vjun Delegation to the Imperial Senate


Message edited by Bernard_Oriel - Saturday, 20 Nov 2010, 9:25 PM
 
Crin_StarDate: Saturday, 20 Nov 2010, 9:30 PM | Message # 4
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"Can you explain how any of these weapons are offensive since we have already removed hyperdrives from these vessels? They can't attack other worlds and so the whole point is moot.

And quite frankly they are defensive for the purpose of say a hostile group is in system and you need to respond quickly with force. The ability to land troops, supplies and equipment is an indisputable advantage to anyone having to defend a system because it makes it easy to put forces where they are needed while the space forces keep the planets safe.

As for the cannons they are useful because they can actually damage ships that may be attacking a system. Planets should not be forced to give up their advantage over the pirates and other bands of non-imperial forces around the galaxy because YOU senator can't seem to grasp a relatively simple concept that is firepower and how it is an advantage.

 
Bernard_OrielDate: Saturday, 20 Nov 2010, 9:41 PM | Message # 5
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A. Planets within the same system do not always agree. Note the conflict between the twin worlds and Corellia. And so worlds should be restricted from affecting the rights of other worlds in their system or in nearby systems. Orbital Bombardment guns should never be permitted for worlds.

B. 400 Troops on a single vessel, with 20 armoured vehicles is enough to repel even the most determined pirate raids on moons etc (although one questions why these aren't sufficiently garrisoned anyway). How many pirate groups possess the kind of organized ground forces (and especially armour) required to threaten such a force.

C. These giant cannons are outdated, primitive weapons. They do not threaten any modern vessel (especially the nimble fighters and transports of pirates) with any degree if manouvreability, they threaten only static targets. I.E. Docked vessels and worlds. Primative, inaccurate, slow loading weapons are not an advantage over pirates, they are indeed a liability in this situation.

D. The Emperor's most illustrious battle fleet would of course be able to spring to aid worlds if their defences are not sufficient (and this act would not effect such a sufficiency). This is why we pay for the Imperial Navy, to combat Pirates and external aggressors.


Bernard Oriel
Senator for the Planet of Vjun
1st Earl Malreaux (Second Creation)
Vjun Delegation to the Imperial Senate
 
Crin_StarDate: Saturday, 20 Nov 2010, 9:52 PM | Message # 6
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"As usual senator you are blind to the numerous uses of these vessels. Planets aren't the only ones with ships you would classify as a capitol ship senator even pirate groups have them as do gangs, and lets not even get started on the Hutt fleets. Nor the separatist remnants which plague the galaxy still to this day.

You mention garrison bases and what they can be used for:
A natural disaster occurs on a planet the prefab base can be quickly deployed to the area affected and act as a command base where injured can be brought and relief efforts can begin long before most planet bound forces can arrive. The armored vehicles can then be used to tow needed supplies and construction pieces into place and/or act as a deterrent to any looting which may occur.

Pirate, or other organization units sneak onto a planet and begin attacking. It can be quickly deployed to the area in question once again to act as a command base from where the forces on hand can be quickly organized and commanded. Or if you believe an area to be at risk of illegal activities a quick base deployment can put soldiers in the area immediately to act as a crime prevention tool.

As I stated about the guns, they are not outdated and still have their place defending worlds from hostile attacks. As much as you falsely categorize them as such they have their place in destroying pirate capitol ships and those which are not under planetary or imperial control.

Now how about instead of worrying yourself with planets why not actually do something useful for a change of pace and actually try to INCREASE security on worlds by allowing them to decide how to defend them damn selves without you preaching from on high about how they should be. We are NOT Vjun senator, we have our own needs so you need to back off of us other planets and let us decide what is right for us.

 
Bernard_OrielDate: Saturday, 20 Nov 2010, 10:07 PM | Message # 7
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Observing the standard Imperial Landing Base, I have been informed several worlds have purchased these for ships compliments. Explain to me what natural disasters necessitate the deployment of a 10 meter high "Death Fence"? my act allows non military structures to be carried for the alleviation of disasters.

What Pirate organisation "sneaks onto a planet"? Pirates hit and fade,steal ships and cargo or launch lightning fast raids. Pirates do not have armies, they do not land ground forces. If you brought in a prefabricated garrison base it would take hours to deploy. Pirates do not remain on worlds for days, they hit and run. By the time you had deployed your prefabricated base they would be gone.

Equally, how does deployment of a fortress to an area act to prevent crime etc? Ive never seen an armoured police station prevent crime. Active intervention stops crime. Why not simply deploy ground forces who have their own mobile bases?

No world needs bases that can be deployed by spacecraft. That is to say there is nothing prohibiting you having bases which can be deployed by atmospheric craft. So if you did feel the need to garrison part of your world, you have that power under this act. This act does not ban prefabricated bases in themselves, just their carriage on starships by planetary forces.

How many pirate groups possess capital class vessels? One in a hundred? Please name some "pirate Capitol ships" threatened by these guns? What classes?

Also I would urge Senator Star to mind her tongue. Vjun does not have the power to legislate over other worlds, only the full senate does. Worlds are beholden to the democratic will of the senate. That is the law.


Bernard Oriel
Senator for the Planet of Vjun
1st Earl Malreaux (Second Creation)
Vjun Delegation to the Imperial Senate
 
Crin_StarDate: Saturday, 20 Nov 2010, 10:55 PM | Message # 8
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"Do not twist my words senator. I said YOU do not have that power and that you should not continue to try to force you views onto other planets.

You want lists of known pirate ships alright:
Interceptor class frigate- length 150 meters
Kaloth battlecruiser- listed in at 305 meters
CR 90 Corvettes- 150 meters
IPV-1 System Patrol Craft- 150 meters
DP-20 Frigate-120 meters

and the list goes on senator but for the sake of the senates time i will leave it at just those specific examples. What I am saying with that list is those ships which we have SEEN being used against planets by pirate organizations that planets have already had to fight against. Do you really want to leave systems up against these types of threats and not have the best weaponry, the best military equipment available to them?

Senators we live in a dangerous galaxy as i have said before, and these groups make it all the more so? Do you really wish to continue to bury your head in the sand and ignore these threats as Senator Oriel would have you do? Do you really wish to ignore the facts right infront of your face that there are dangers out there that your people may have to deal with, and if you vote in favor of Senator Oriel's bill you are casting a vote that endangers the lives of your people by forcing your ships to remove weapons which give you a valuable advantage in such a fight.

And not ALL prefab bases have such things senator and so what if they do? It doesn't have a baring what the structure looks like but instead how it is used. You prepare for the worst which would be an attack on your system in which you have to deploy a base as a command center but hope for the best which is nothing goes wrong.

 
Senator_OrdanDate: Saturday, 20 Nov 2010, 11:12 PM | Message # 9
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Senator Star,

If Senator Oriel's views are shared by the Senate then they are the Senate's views, not his own.

While I can hardly expect a woman such as yourself (a senator) to be an expert in Capital Vessels.. an IPV-1 has no hyperdrive. What use would this be to pirate raiders?

Your argument is risible. Less than 1/10000 ships carry this sort of bombardment cannon. The notion is effects anyone but the very smallest minority is risible also. Slow reloading, ponderous to aim, orbital bombardment cannons do not threaten pirates. They threaten only the lives of your people, and of others within your ship's range.

A world should never be able to attack and invade another. A prefabricated garrison base is an aggressive installation, designed to be deployed in the vanguard of an invasion. It has little to no defensive uses when mounted on a starship that it would not have when mounted on an atmospheric vessel.

You do not have the right to project military force onto other worlds. To project military force in the manner which you wish to really raises the question you keep raising. Do we want to live in a galaxy where any world can threaten another with projection of Military force? In short you would return us to the era before the clone wars where abusive worlds and cartels were able to invade less powerful worlds with impunity.

This is not a dangerous galaxy. This is a safe and secure galaxy. I call upon the Chair to make a comment regarding this point which has been repeated by Senator Star despite many of corrections. To suggest this galaxy is not safe is to question the Empire's own statements with regard to this, and to show a considerable lack of respect for the Emperor and his Fleet. The Imperial Navy has brought safety, stability. It is worlds who seek to attack others who threaten this peaceable status quo.

It is for these reasons that I vote in favour of this act, as it acts to clarify and expand upon the excellent legislation Senator Oriel has thus far proposed. This act prevents expansionism, invasions, aggression and encourages the continuation of Universal Peace, to do anything but vote in favour would be an unpatriotic act in itself.


Senator Hubert Ordan
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Bernard_OrielDate: Saturday, 20 Nov 2010, 11:15 PM | Message # 10
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I'd like to thank Senator Ordan for taking the words right out of my mouth.

Removing orbital bombardment cannons and restricting aggressive assault forces has no impact on worlds ability to defend themselves. This act only prevents aggression.

If Senator Star is simply going to trot out this tired (having lost two votes, one by a supermajority) argument, then I suggest she hold her tongue rather than embarasing herself again. This act does not threaten defence, to suggest it does is a straw man.


Bernard Oriel
Senator for the Planet of Vjun
1st Earl Malreaux (Second Creation)
Vjun Delegation to the Imperial Senate
 
FabioDate: Sunday, 21 Nov 2010, 0:23 AM | Message # 11
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Senator Oriel. A question if I may.... Number six... We have guards within the mines of our planet that use flamethrowers to fend off giant insects and what not. How would you propose my miners defend them self's if we aren't allowed to use a flame thrower? There's thousands of poisonous insects, blaster's just wont cut it.

Fabio Riada. King of Anobis.

Message edited by Fabio - Sunday, 21 Nov 2010, 5:09 AM
 
Bernard_OrielDate: Sunday, 21 Nov 2010, 0:29 AM | Message # 12
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Senator Riada

I have removed the provision with regard to this weapon as there are legitimate civilian applications for it.


Bernard Oriel
Senator for the Planet of Vjun
1st Earl Malreaux (Second Creation)
Vjun Delegation to the Imperial Senate
 
Ilanah_ThanatosDate: Sunday, 21 Nov 2010, 9:03 AM | Message # 13
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Senator Oriel's argument is reasonable and sound, in my opinion. With that in mind, I vote in favor of this legislation.

Ilanah R. Thanatos
Senator of Chandrila
 
Artemis_VandenDate: Sunday, 21 Nov 2010, 10:29 AM | Message # 14
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Naboo, like all worlds, has had its problems with piracy. But this is no excuse for these weapons of enormous destructive power. These are not "defense" weapons, Senators. They are weapons of war. And before Senator Star makes the argument that Naboo should be content to manage its own defense forces, it should be noted that this measure, I feel, is about the sort of galaxy that we wish to live in, and wish our children to live in. I want to live in a galaxy without war, and the surest way I know how to bring this about is to do away with weapons of war. Senators, do we not see the vicious cycle that we are perpetuating? Because of "pirates" or "Separatists" or "insurgents," the Empire produces more powerful warships, as it must. As these are put into use, the last line of warships is given to planets so they can defend themselves from "pirates" or "Separatists" or "insurgents," as they must. Inevitably, these end up in the hands of "pirates" and "Separatists" and "insurgents," and so the Empire produces more powerful warships, as it must. On it goes, Senators, and as long as it does we are all participants in it. Not only Naboo or Vjun, but Volus too. This chain must be broken somewhere, and it might as well be here. I vote in favor, as I will vote in favor of any measure that prepares us for peace, not war.

Artemis Vanden
Representative of the Naboo


Message edited by Artemis_Vanden - Sunday, 21 Nov 2010, 10:31 AM
 
RonsardEntrenteDate: Sunday, 21 Nov 2010, 7:00 PM | Message # 15
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Commenor also votes in favor of this Act. We must trust in the Empire and the Imperial Fleet for our collective defensive needs, and not merely upon local forces that run the risk of falling into the hands of insurgents or rebels. We can only be truly unified when we begin to scale back our individual fleets and military forces as a sign of how far we have come from the old republic days: namely intergalactic peace in our times. Thanks in large part to the centralization and concentration of military power into the Imperial realm and demilitarization of para-governmental forces (e.g. Separatists, Jedi, etc).

Ronsard Entrente

Senator of Commenor
Ranking Member, Commerce Committee

 
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