Peaceful Relations Act
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Crin_Star | Date: Friday, 31 Dec 2010, 11:53 AM | Message # 16 |
Major general
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| For the same reason as you, and the senate, see fit to limit biological weapons and their distribution. They are quite simply not needed in this galaxy by planetary governments. Instead conventional weapons serve a much better a much more important purpose in this instance and we should ban these weapons whose devastating ability is so high.
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Senator_Cambrist | Date: Friday, 31 Dec 2010, 12:35 PM | Message # 17 |
 Lieutenant general
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| Senator Star, I referred only to Imperial worlds. Dimok and Ripoblus, for example. Or the Daupherm Planet States and the Botor Enclave. These are Imperial worlds that are in states of armed conflict with one another, in many cases for thousands of generations. Corellia's animosity for its Twin Worlds would, I would say, be another example of a local dispute that is likely to become an armed conflict at some point, as it has in the past. These conflicts are unfortunate, of course. But these worlds have always had and should always have the right to resolve these disputes among themselves. Unless, that is, the Empire decides to intervene if it wishes to. Under your measure, Senator, this decision is already made for the Empire—under your measure, in fact, the Empire must decide not to intervene if it doesn't wish to. You are requiring the Empire, in effect, to make decisions that are morally ambiguous. To answer your question, there is no doubt that large amounts of planetary resources are expended in these conflicts. That is why, as I said, they are unfortunate. That is also why the Empire should, of course, encourage the resolution of these conflicts. However, as long as a world—or two worlds at war with one another—continue to pay the taxes and tributes to Imperial Center that are expected of them, and as long as commerce with these worlds remains at least notionally possible, it is and should be the prerogative of the Empire to choose whether it wishes to become involved. Your question referred to planetary resources, which I have addressed, and also to Imperial resources which I think I addressed earlier. That is to say, the expense of Imperial time, resources, and credits in bringing these conflicts to an end would be far more, in most cases, than the cost of leaving them be. Especially considering the sheer number of worlds that are in conflict with each other. Hundreds, if not thousands. You have said that your measure provides for "the focusing of resources on true enemies of the Empire," but it does precisely the opposite; it will mire the Empire in the centuries old conflicts of its planets for centuries to come. Planets that, incidentally, may be enthusiastically loyal to the Empire and still have nothing but enmity for one another. There is, incidentally, an economic case to be made for these interstellar conflicts, which I do not mean to sound morbid in mentioning here. But as long as there is demand among worlds for warships, and weapons, and munitions, arms, etc., these things will be manufactured. Volus may have built its own warship simply for its own defense, but there are many, many beings in this galaxy for whom the production of warships, and other weapons of war, is their livelihood. The Empire is a prolific customer in this regard, but so are many Imperial worlds. I do not mean to give this argument undue attention, however, but to make note of it. Finally, I believe the most reasonable solution to the disagreement over mines is to amend the wording of the measure to prohibit the placing of mines in the vicinity of another world's sovereign space such that the placement of mines substantively impedes commercial traffic to that world. This would permit what Senator Domon pointed out would have been Vjun's prudent use of mines to defend its sensor array in the vicinity of Volus. However, even if this is a provision that I would support under the circumstances—I did say before that certain articles of this measure deserve to pass—I still feel that the measure, as a whole, does not deserve to pass for the reasons I have mentioned.
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Janar_Cerra | Date: Saturday, 01 Jan 2011, 10:09 AM | Message # 18 |
 Major general
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| Why should we not be striving for a perfect world to live in? The main purpose of this motion is to prevent wars within the Empire. I see nothing fundamentally wrong with that. After all, are we not all here attempting to do the same thing? To make this galaxy a better place for all imperial citizens? Perhaps I have come in here far too idealistic and full of hope that we would accomplish some good for the people we represent. Perhaps, unlike many others within this chamber, I do vote blindly with my morals and heart. If we stop the fighting between worlds that are within the Empire, it will allow us to expand the Empire at a greater rate in my opinion. If we are not fighting with each other it gives us more resources to go after those who oppose the Emperor’s rule. I can only see the good that would come out of this. I am sorry for going against the majority again, but Garos IV votes in favor for this motion. I personally abhor war and what comes with it. Garos has seen its fair share of fighting and if I can spare the families of our military from losing a loved one, then I must vote in favor of peace, especially if it is peace within the Empire. We are all on the same side here.
Ja'nar Cerra Queen of Garos IV Acting Senator to the Republic, Garos IV
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Senator_Ordan | Date: Saturday, 01 Jan 2011, 10:42 AM | Message # 19 |
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| As ever Senator Star is in her womanly bubble of nonsense. She's voting for this, even though she knows as well as any of us that this is by no means enforceable or realistic. She is not voting for "peace" in the Empire, but simply voting in favour of war, for what else can it be called when the Imperial Military is forced to intervene in every trivial local conflict except a war. This is a measure which would cause the unnecessary deaths of millions if not billions of the Emperor's soldiers to enforce this ludicrous piece of law. Senator Cerra is voting to send our boys in white to fight not the enemies of the Empire, but the good hearty Imperial loving people who would love to do them honour. Why should the boys in white be sent to fight to keep both sides apart when both sides may both be good, Imperial loving citizens?
Senator Hubert Ordan __________________________
Senator of the Azure Sector Foreign Minister of Anaxes Captain-General of the Azure Interest Protection Squadron Deputy Chairman of the Ethics Committee Worshipful Master of the Most Loyal and Honourable Company of Blockadeers Archtreasurer of the Vault of Pols Anaxes Autocrat of Selgon Owner of Azure Durasteel Systems Admiral (Ret) Order of the Canted Circle
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Crin_Star | Date: Saturday, 01 Jan 2011, 11:25 AM | Message # 20 |
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| I would remind Senator Ordan that he has been warned multiple times about personal attacks against members of this body and should keep his chauvinistic views to himself and focus on the measure at hand. However senator you contradict yourself there. If these so called people are truly hearty and Imperial loving, then why would they raise arms against the Imperial military? If these people were so supportive of the Empire then they would not consider rising up against the enforcement of Imperial Law. However, I will indulge you for a moment. If someone were to resist the enforcement of imperial law through violence, then they are to be considered traitors and deserve to be dealt with in such a manner. They SHOULD be dealt with by the Empire and any -true- servant therein.
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LomenRyuun | Date: Saturday, 01 Jan 2011, 11:32 AM | Message # 21 |
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| Senators, this act is obviously bad legislation, at least in my own opinion. I cannot speak for the rest of you. However, Druckenwell has drawn up an alternate proposal that should suit the needs of the Senate, if, my good Senators, you are interested in seeing it.
Lomen Ryuun Senator, Doldur Sector Senator, Druckenwell Representative, Monor II (10 BBY - 9 BBY) Representative, Geridard Representative, Boranall Representative, Therenor Prime Vice-chairman, Defense Committee (Temporarily suspended) Controlling Shareholder - Druckenwell Arms Corporation
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Dierna_Chakrei | Date: Saturday, 01 Jan 2011, 11:34 AM | Message # 22 |
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| I agree with Senators Cerra and Star. We should strive for a more perfect galaxy and this measure will help to ensure that. I therefore cast my vote in favor of this legislation.
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Crin_Star | Date: Saturday, 01 Jan 2011, 11:38 AM | Message # 23 |
Major general
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| Senator Ryuun, I am willing to negotiate or alter slightly on certain provisions but the overall content of this bill and its overall message should not be significantly altered. Furthermore to senator Ordan, before you have a chance to argue further or challenge my language there. I would simply ask you if taking up arms against the empire is not considered Treason then what is? At which point do we consider those who take up arms against us traitors against the empire?
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Senator_Ordan | Date: Saturday, 01 Jan 2011, 11:38 AM | Message # 24 |
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| Senator Star, I do not in fact contradict myself, but perhaps my words went a little over your pretty little head. It is perfectly possible that two Imperial loving worlds might come to war with eachother, and this would compel the Imperial Military to attack both to maintain the peace. For example, if Volus used its ship to attack the holdings of Anexes, then Anaxes might be forced to use the forces at its disposal to crush Volus like a bug. In this situation, it would not naturally follow that either Volus or Anaxes would bear any ill feeling or dislike for the Empire, but may simply feel it is time to continue politics by other means. When Governments feel that, it has always been their prerogative to test their strength in the honourable field of battle and so ensure a decisive outcome. Far better this, far better a short, clean, war than a "cold war" which would allow hatreds and tensions to multiply and increase, worlds to continue arming themselves and preparing for a later conflict which might begin at some point in the future which would be vastly more bloody. That said, it would not be unreasonable to draft a set of "rules of engagement" for wars within the Empire, to minimise the impact of any possible conflict on the Empire as a whole and to assure it is an honourable arena in which gentlemen may conduct a gentlemanly war without harming other citizens not directly involved.
Senator Hubert Ordan __________________________
Senator of the Azure Sector Foreign Minister of Anaxes Captain-General of the Azure Interest Protection Squadron Deputy Chairman of the Ethics Committee Worshipful Master of the Most Loyal and Honourable Company of Blockadeers Archtreasurer of the Vault of Pols Anaxes Autocrat of Selgon Owner of Azure Durasteel Systems Admiral (Ret) Order of the Canted Circle
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Crin_Star | Date: Saturday, 01 Jan 2011, 11:42 AM | Message # 25 |
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| "If that were to be the case this measure would not effect the people of Anaxes senator as an act of defense would be exempt. It would be the one starting the war that would be at fault, Senator for the breach of peace. However to be clear, you words did not go over anyone's head. Your words were quite clear. That imperial lives would be lost enforcing Imperial Law on good honest Imperial Citizens. A clear contradiction if there ever was one.
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Senator_Ordan | Date: Saturday, 01 Jan 2011, 11:44 AM | Message # 26 |
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| That Imperial Military lives would be lost to resolve squabbles between local governments is my objection.
Senator Hubert Ordan __________________________
Senator of the Azure Sector Foreign Minister of Anaxes Captain-General of the Azure Interest Protection Squadron Deputy Chairman of the Ethics Committee Worshipful Master of the Most Loyal and Honourable Company of Blockadeers Archtreasurer of the Vault of Pols Anaxes Autocrat of Selgon Owner of Azure Durasteel Systems Admiral (Ret) Order of the Canted Circle
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Senator_Cambrist | Date: Saturday, 01 Jan 2011, 12:05 PM | Message # 27 |
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| Senator Chakrei, a rare sight indeed. It is good of you to grace us with your presence, and in so timely a manner as to vote, once again, in support of one of Senator Star's more controversial proposals. But honestly, Senators, don't let's be foolish. Senator Ordan's hypothetical example is a valid one, and I will suggest another hypothetical example to you. Consider Tatooine, a planet that no one here has reason to have heard of. It is a remote, desert world that it is fair to describe as a "backwater." It is also an Imperial world. There is a garrison of Imperial troops on this planet to maintain the peace, but it is my understanding that, for the most part, they do not involve themselves in local affairs, government, etc. The planet simply cannot be governed, except by criminals, Hutts, and other unsavory characters. But be that as it may, suppose that whatever ruling faction on Tatooine—let us say it's some Hutt—decides to boycott all goods from Brentaal for no reason or, perhaps, for some flimsy reason. Let us say it is because of Brentaal's relentless interdiction of spice. Needless to say, Senators, Brentaal would not suffer the indignity of having criminals in de facto control of another Imperial world preventing its goods from being sold on that world, as is Brentaal's right to do so. Brentaal would not suffer this indignity nor this damage to the livelihoods of its people whose income comes from exported goods. Under these circumstances, I, as Senator of Brentaal, have certain options available to me; I may petition the Empire to use its time, resources, and money—on Tatooine, mind you, Imperial time, resources, and money are appreciably limited—to resolve this small, planetary dispute for me. Or, alternatively, I may suggest to my world that we resolve it ourselves. With force. In this case, Brentaal and Tatooine would be in a armed conflict with one another. This conflict would be brief, it would be justified, and it would not waste the Empire's time and resources. This is but one example among many of a right—a right that is thousands of generations old—of planets to resolve their own disputes being put to good, justified, and practical use. I do second, however, Senator Ordan's call for appropriate rules of engagement. I'm willing to respect a Senator who supports this measure because he, she, or it believes it is the right thing to do. But I'm not willing to respect a Senator who makes a demonstrably wrong argument for it. The argument that this measure will free up more resources to be used to combat the enemies of the Empire is demonstrably wrong. Let us not be inconsistent, either. Senator Chakrei, for a Senator who once voted simply on the principle of wanting your world's "options to be open" on a subject of no relevance to Aeeq whatsoever, your vote today does not follow at all from that principle.
Message edited by Senator_Cambrist - Saturday, 01 Jan 2011, 12:09 PM |
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Toben-Domon | Date: Saturday, 01 Jan 2011, 12:46 PM | Message # 28 |
 Major general
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| I am sorry, Senator Star. From a wishful standpoint, I endorse this measure. If it were at all possible and workable, then I would be the first to put my full support behind it. However, in the sense of practicality, myself and the Sluissi I represent must regrettably vote against.
Toben Domon Senator, Sluis Van
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Crin_Star | Date: Saturday, 01 Jan 2011, 12:55 PM | Message # 29 |
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| "Senator Cambrist quite frankly you and Brentaal don't have the right to go gallivanting about the galaxy and enforcing your will on other worlds. If say Tatooine were to ban your goods from their planet, then that is their hereditary right to do so and as such your world would have no right to interfere. I know you may not like to hear that from an economic point of view but to launch an attack would deprive another planet of its right to self governance. However, the option to make war remains open with permission from the ruling council. If the empire or a representative saw that it was a justified attack then with that permission you would be allowed to attempt an attack on Tatooine. This measure will take the right to arbitrarily go to war with one another away saving such incidents only when they are truly justified and not when a couple of citizen's pocketbooks are on the line or on the whim of a leader who wishes to see who, pardon my language for a moment, has a bigger stick.
Message edited by Crin_Star - Saturday, 01 Jan 2011, 1:12 PM |
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Senator_Cambrist | Date: Saturday, 01 Jan 2011, 1:20 PM | Message # 30 |
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| With respect, Senator Star, you are mistaken. The Empire has long upheld the right to free commerce among Imperial worlds, as has the Commerce Council and the Senate no more than a month ago. What I don't think you are appreciating, Senator, is that, in the example I described, Tatooine is committing an act of economic war on Brentaal. Of course it has the right to commit that act, but it is still an act that would damage the lives and livelihoods of my people as surely as would a bomb or a blaster. Brentaal, in this circumstance, would be quite justified in responding to an act of war with another act of war. As Tatooine interferes in Brentaal's affairs, so Brentaal may interfere in Tatooine's. I would also point out that, in my example, Brentaal would bring its might to bear upon the puny criminal infrastructure on Tatooine, removing it and, with it, the impediment it poses to free commerce. And it would do so with few or no casualties, and no Imperial casualties or resources which, as I said, are scarce on Tatooine. This is the problem with arguing that "war is bad, it should never happen." The fact, Senators, is that sometimes war is good, and it should happen. For those who support this measure on that basis, and vote with their hearts instead of their heads, I feel compelled to quote Supreme Chancellor Jadams, one of the founders of the Old Republic, who said that "facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." This measure, Senators, is one based entirely on wishes, inclinations, and passions, and it is not consonant with reality.
Message edited by Senator_Cambrist - Saturday, 01 Jan 2011, 1:32 PM |
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