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Peaceful Relations Act
Crin_StarDate: Thursday, 30 Dec 2010, 7:41 PM | Message # 1
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Senators, as many of you have pointed out in the past I have said that this galaxy is dangerous and the recent attacks on the Vjun space station illustrate this point nicely. For this reason, I feel we must unite further in the name of both security and peace under His Majesty and the ruling council.

Article I:

1. No Imperial Planet may, without the direct approval of the ruling council or a representative of the ruling council, commit an act of war against another planet whether within the same system or not.

A. Acts of war are considered to be direct engagement of military forces or other actions taken, not in defense or in the enforcement of Imperial and Local laws,
whose outcome would be to attempt to force another planet to engage in an armed conflict.

2. No Imperial World may attempt to place any mines, ships larger than 75 meters, or a significant military presence near the sovereign space of another world.

A. An exemption to the above section would be if the worlds were in the same system, as such, it could not be avoided.

3. No Imperial world may obtain, use, possess, arm, or in any way engage a Nuclear, anti-matter, Neutron, Atomic compression, radiation, or any other bomb type of which a single detonation of which could, by itself, cause the destruction of a city and/or it's inhabitants.

4. No Imperial world may declare a war, of any kind, on or against any other Imperial world.

Article II:

1. Imperial Worlds should, with approval of their political officers, reply to attacks and dangers to other nearby Imperial Worlds of their forces within a timely manner.

A. A timely manner will be deemed as the minimum amount of time it takes to reach the location via a hyperspace jump plus at least 10 minutes to rally together
forces available to counter the attackers.

Article III:

1. Violators of the above articles will be subject to being forced to surrender up to 75% of all of their military forces and equipment to the Ruling Council or if serious enough direct engagement of the Imperial Navy and the arrest and detention of its leaders.

2. If the forces of a world come under fire either from the forces of another Imperial World, or from forces not affiliated with the Empire, then they are authorized to return fire immediately without waiting for approval.

 
Senator_CambristDate: Thursday, 30 Dec 2010, 9:45 PM | Message # 2
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If Volus wishes to imagine itself a fantasy world free of the enmity, the jealousy, or the astropolitical designs of other worlds, I would thank it to do so without trying to require other, saner worlds from having to do so too. For Brentaal has no desire to prostrate herself before her enemies, who are real and many. Armed conflict among worlds is a fact of the Empire. It is a fact not only of the Empire, but it has always been and will always be a fact of this galaxy. One might as well attempt to stop the suns from rising or setting, for to attempt to stop armed conflict among worlds would be an impossible feat that would consume the time, resources, and money of the Empire from now to the end of its rule (may it never, in fact, end).

Consider that as we speak, there are innumerable Imperial worlds in states of armed conflict with one another. Shall the Empire gallivant about the galaxy putting out brush fires as though it has nothing else to do? I believe it is Senator Star herself who has made a point of saying in the past that the Empire simply cannot do this, and it is unreasonable to expect it to, much less require it to. I cannot imagine any act of rebellion or sabotage that would so damage the Empire, its fleet, and its treasury as would this measure.

There are articles in this measure that do deserve to pass. But the measure, considered as a whole, does not. I vote against. Commendable though it may be for the Volusian delegation to promote this idealized state of affairs, it is not a state of affairs that should be promoted, or required, by law.


 
Crin_StarDate: Thursday, 30 Dec 2010, 10:01 PM | Message # 3
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Senator Cambrist, this measure would more likely do good for the imperial treasury as it would allow them to confiscate portions of those planets fleets and military forces and do with it what they wish including, but not limited to, the auctioning off to other planets, using it themselves or a host of other measures which would either save the Empire money or increase funding that would more than pay for such intervention.
 
Senator_CambristDate: Thursday, 30 Dec 2010, 10:30 PM | Message # 4
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With respect, this is not a convincing riposte, Senator. Giving the Empire the authority to embark upon the bureaucratic nightmare that you have described is quite different from requiring the Empire to do so, as your measure does. But this, I feel, is a minor point. What I tried to convey in my comments is that relations among worlds are no different from relations among people, so long as events, whether among people or worlds, are subject to the passions of men. And women, pardon. No one imagines—or, at any rate, it is foolish to imagine—that people will ever be completely at peace. We are not even at peace with ourselves, let alone with others. And so it is with worlds. You are legislating against human nature, Senator, and the nature of most other species as well.

I made this argument without touching on the articles in the measure in any great detail. But as I have the floor again, I will do so now. It should be noted, for instance, that there are some planets that have few or no defense forces. Let us set aside those with no defense forces, and consider only those with few. The wording of your measure seems to require, vis'a'vis its use of the vague word "should," a military response to unnamed "attacks and dangers" on behalf of other worlds (and goes so far as to require a response within a certain amount of time), when, for many worlds, to spare any of their forces would be to leave themselves vulnerable. Volus is not in this position, and neither is Brentaal. But here I assume a role that in which you typically cast yourself—that of a defender of the rights of other, less fortunate worlds.

This is but one example, Senator, but as I said I oppose the measure on principle more than I oppose any of its particular provisions—though I oppose many of them, too. I have pointed out before that there are occasions on which violence among worlds, and among people, is justified, and I will not be redundant in doing so again now except to note that this remains my belief, and that it is a belief that has been commonly accepted throughout the history of man.




Message edited by Senator_Cambrist - Thursday, 30 Dec 2010, 10:44 PM
 
Crin_StarDate: Thursday, 30 Dec 2010, 10:57 PM | Message # 5
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Senator Cambrist, I would encourage you to read closer on the portion of the bill referring in particular to the Imperial Navy. It states clearly that only if the situation warrants the direct intervention, which would be judged by the Imperial Navy or someone appointed to make that decision.

As for violence among worlds, this bill applies only to those worlds who are a part of the empire, who have united under a banner. They agree to be a part of this empire and as such -should- be asked or have it demanded of them that they act as such. The wars which wage senator, should be brought to an abrupt end so that those resources can be diverted where it is needed.

I will pose a question to you senator, which you should be more than able to answer as the head of the commerce committee. How much in both planetary and imperial resources are being tied up because of petty and silly conflicts between ourselves? These unstable governments can only contribute to those forces who list the Empire among its enemies.

Now to be clear I do understand your opposition, and do agree that perhaps we should allow a bit of breathing room to those planets with small forces. as such I will put forth an amendment to change to language.

Article II:

B. If a Planet is unable to respond due to lack of forces or an inadequate forces then they are to be considered immune from the provisions.

 
Bernard_OrielDate: Friday, 31 Dec 2010, 5:44 AM | Message # 6
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This really would be truly a nightmare.. While I see that Senator Star has adopted the high minded mentality of opposing wars between the worlds of the Empire, I am saddened to say that her motion is again rather fanciful and unenforceable.

For example, Senator Star uses very imprecise terms such as "near" a poor definition of "acts of war", "system". Again it is legislation which needs re-drafting before this Senate can even consider enacting it into law.

I must vote against this legislation, while I respect its purpose I cannot blindly vote with my morals, and I don't believe this motion is likely to do any more than creating a bureaucratic set of rules for Imperial Intervention in local conflicts. Worlds have ever waged war upon each other and I do not believe it is fair to ask Imperial Forces to intervene in these (relatively minor in most cases) scuffles. Equally, no provision is given for civil wars etc etc.

The Emperor has the power to issue a decree ordering the end of or the intervention in any local conflict he chooses. Thus it is not even needed, and I believe it should be the Emperor and Senate's choice to intervene (or not) in a war between the Empire's worlds, it should not be the role of an arbitrarily and poorly drafted law to do so.


Bernard Oriel
Senator for the Planet of Vjun
1st Earl Malreaux (Second Creation)
Vjun Delegation to the Imperial Senate
 
LomenRyuunDate: Friday, 31 Dec 2010, 9:13 AM | Message # 7
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Senator Star, for every good piece of legislation you propose, for every wise comment you make, you take a step back with propositions such as these. I commend you for effort, Senator, but this is unrealistic. Druckenwell votes against.

Lomen Ryuun
Senator, Doldur Sector
Senator, Druckenwell
Representative, Monor II (10 BBY - 9 BBY)
Representative, Geridard
Representative, Boranall
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Controlling Shareholder - Druckenwell Arms Corporation
 
Senator_OrdanDate: Friday, 31 Dec 2010, 9:46 AM | Message # 8
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6/10 For Effort
1/10 For Achievement

I vote against. Waste of money and Senate time. We could legislate to give every citizen a million credits too, but it would not be practical.


Senator Hubert Ordan
__________________________

Senator of the Azure Sector
Foreign Minister of Anaxes
Captain-General of the Azure Interest Protection Squadron
Deputy Chairman of the Ethics Committee
Worshipful Master of the Most Loyal and Honourable Company of Blockadeers
Archtreasurer of the Vault of Pols Anaxes
Autocrat of Selgon
Owner of Azure Durasteel
Systems Admiral (Ret)
Order of the Canted Circle


Message edited by Senator_Ordan - Friday, 31 Dec 2010, 9:47 AM
 
Toben-DomonDate: Friday, 31 Dec 2010, 9:57 AM | Message # 9
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Senator Star, if I may? I have a few individual queries rather than a general nay-saying like many of the Senators here.

In respect to Article I:

Deep space that is not actually territory of anyone, other than the Empire, of course, is exactly that: unowned space. Why should a law be passed preventing mining, placing ships or stations in it? You have boundaries around Volus, as do we all around our planets. Everything inside that sphere of control you have a say over. If Sluis Van wishes to ring the space around Volus with ships and platforms, it is not illegal in the slightest. If you have problems, Senator, I suggest you place your own platforms or find a legal way to expand your sphere of influence.

If no Imperial world can declare 'war' on an other Imperial world, what of border skirmishes, raids, minor clashes and 'police actions?' Will you attempt to cover everything and remove any way possible of venting?

In respect to the armaments a world may have, I believe that if someone can get close enough to inflict such weaponry upon your world, then perhaps you should place better defenses and security measures, rather than simply ban weapons that you are afraid of.


Toben Domon
Senator, Sluis Van
 
Crin_StarDate: Friday, 31 Dec 2010, 10:44 AM | Message # 10
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Senator Domon to your question, this does not prevent mining or placing stations in deep space in fact there is no mention of stations in the piece of legislation. Instead focusing on ships of considerable power a close distance from another star system. The mines being referred to are of a military and not a civilian nature Senator, for example the Mine Type A, B, or C.

The same could be said for weapons previously outlawed by the Senate, senator. Such as the large turbolasers or in fact the biological weapons. These weapons though, are as dangerous if not more so, in the case of the turbolasers, than those previously banned.

In this day and age, there is absolutely no call for planets, truly loyal to his majesty, to feel the need to wage war or conduct hostile actions against other citizens of the Empire. Instead, this measure provides for continuing stability of planetary governments, those engaged in current wars for example, and for the focusing of resources on true enemies of the empire instead of each other. We should focus our attentions on those who deserve it, like the cowards who attacked the Vjun space station, or pirates who still plague trade and peace. We are an Empire, senators, a -united- empire and as such the need for petty border skirmishes, raids, and minor clashes among ourselves has past.

To Senator Oriel, the Imperial intervention is only required as it is deemed necessary by the Imperial Navy or the ruling council. Most conflicts will likely be solved through arbitration and negotiation instead of through outright engagement of the Imperial Military.

 
Toben-DomonDate: Friday, 31 Dec 2010, 10:57 AM | Message # 11
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Your words against squabbling and infighting have some merit, Senator. I commend you for that.

However, static defenses of the various mine types as you have mentioned, cannot be compared to biological weapons and heavy turbolasers. If anything, these mines are less dangerous. Even placed in open space, or beyond allowed boundaries, they are only a danger to those who come close and, relatively speaking, they can be cleared with careful and precise tools. If anything, mines may well have assisted the Vjun station and prevented the loss of four Vjunite lives.

Perhaps, Senator, yourself and Senator Oriel could put behind the differences Vjun and Volus have had in the past and you might be able to station Volus-pid defenses at the Vjun station, thereby assisting Vjun and preventing allegations of Volusian lack of response.


Toben Domon
Senator, Sluis Van
 
Crin_StarDate: Friday, 31 Dec 2010, 11:06 AM | Message # 12
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Those accusations have been shown to have little merit and are in fact little better than political posturing by the Senator from Vjun. However, I would apologize to you senator for the misunderstanding. I was speaking on the nuclear, anti-matter and other such devastating bombs who are also banned in this measure when comparing
them to the other weapons previously outlawed by the senate.

As for mines, they do have their uses, yes, and as such aren't outlawed in this measure only banned from placing them near another planet's sovereign space.

 
Toben-DomonDate: Friday, 31 Dec 2010, 11:11 AM | Message # 13
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Ah, my apologies Senator Star, I misunderstood you.

Such destructive devices are dangerous to be sure, but no different really than the proton bombs utilized by the Imperial Navy. For all intents and purposes, though they are not quite conventional explosives, they are still rather tame when compared to the output of the heavy turbolaser cannons previously banned by the Senate. As well, to deliver these devices, vessels must, to my understanding, either be sub-orbital or have fired a warhead from a rather noticeable distance. In either event, static defenses such as weapon emplacements should be more than capable of tracking and destroying them before they cause any harm.


Toben Domon
Senator, Sluis Van
 
Crin_StarDate: Friday, 31 Dec 2010, 11:20 AM | Message # 14
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"The outlawing of planetary governments from possessing such weapons would be in keeping with recent acts by the Senate and as such it is a part of this bill. While we disagree on turbolasers, there is little need for weapons such as these to be employed by a planetary government. These type of weapons should be considered parallel at the very least in the amount of damage that can be caused with biological weapons and as such should be banned from usage.

I am not saying that planets should be unprepared but as Senator Cambrist kindly pointed out earlier, many worlds either do not have spacial defense forces or they have small ones which may not be able to cope with an attack by a larger force.

As for the Imperial Navy, those parts will have no effect on them because they are allowed to use whatever weapons or techniques they wish to employ in a given situation. This measure only pertains to planetary governments.

 
Toben-DomonDate: Friday, 31 Dec 2010, 11:27 AM | Message # 15
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Senator Star, the reason many smaller worlds do not staff a defensive space fleet is for the cost required to upkeep even a moderately-sized defensive force, not to mention training of starfighter pilots, ground crew and so forth. It is for this reason that defensive emplacements even up to the Golan platforms, are utilized. They are cost-effective, easy to train on and require less numbers.

Of course, every Imperial world should have at least one squadron of TIE fighters for defense.

I see no reason to prevent worlds from having these devices; only preventing certain usages of them.


Toben Domon
Senator, Sluis Van
 
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