Legitimization of Sluis Sector Authority

Toben-Domon

Date: Sunday, 25 Dec 2011, 9:52 AM | Message # 16

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It is obviously broken, Senator Ordan, else I would not have requested direct Imperial legitimization. The sector has been fine largely because no other world has chosen to force this particular issue with us. If Brentaal will not acknowledge our leadership and continue to attempt to push into our borders without regard to human and Sluissi living areas, jobs or forewarning, and if the proper channels, such as the Senate here, are unwilling to help, then we will turn to our allies for aid.

It is my hope, though, that all of this can be resolved quickly and easily. Senator Fowlkes, Sluis Van appreciates your support in the fullest, as well as that of any world backing us here. To expect Senator Ordan to think like a compassionate human, well... he has his own agendas and wants and we can hardly expect him to act for the greater good of anyone who is not human.

Toben Domon
Senator, Sluis Van

Senator_Ordan

Date: Sunday, 25 Dec 2011, 10:05 AM | Message # 17

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See this is my problem. You want ammunition in a trade dispute over Brentaal.. I don't think this is appropriate. The senate shouldn't side with Brentaal or Sluis Van but you should both resolve your issues through mediation instead of outflanking one another with law. I don't think it's right for the Empire to prop up the Khedive, especially of he can't maintain his own authority in his Sector.

Let's stay out, let's let things be an let's be Impartial in this dispute which is none of our business. Let's avoid being dragged into this provincial squabble!

Senator Hubert Ordan
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Toben-Domon

Date: Sunday, 25 Dec 2011, 10:20 AM | Message # 18

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The issue is not a trade dispute with Brentaal, Senator. The issue is that Brentaal has outright stated that Brentaal itself, as well as the Empire, do not recognize any authority of the Khedive and, by extension, any planetary governors appointed within the Sluis Sector. To be fair to Brentaal, we have no issue with them mining or taking lumber from Praesitlyn; there is plenty to go around. Our issue arises when they seek to forge into living and working areas of the humans and Sluissi on Praesitlyn and wish to begin operations on tracts of land already allotted to local miners and workers, as well as dwelling areas, and then refuse to listen to the say of the planetary governor simply because the Khedive is not recognized by the Empire.

If you wish to remain apart from a trade dispute, that is understandable, but until the Sluis Sector is granted legitimization, this issue will continue to rise, and I fear the local populace on Praesitlyn will continue to grow more disgruntled; these people are, after all, simply trying to keep their homes and jobs. It's not an unreasonable request.

Toben Domon
Senator, Sluis Van

Senator_Ordan

Date: Sunday, 25 Dec 2011, 10:28 AM | Message # 19

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Doesn't Praesitlyn have a government? Surely it is there to protect the rights of the locals? Are there no courts on Praesitlyn?

Is it ruled directly by the Khedive or by the Sector? Or by Sluis Van?

Toben-Domon

Date: Sunday, 25 Dec 2011, 10:37 AM | Message # 20

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Praesitlyn has a planetary governor, as well as government, yes, and there are courts and rights to protect the locals of Prasitlyn. The problem lies with the issue that the governor, who is human, was appointed by the Khedive. In the messages between myself and Senator Cambrist, the senator openly states that Brentaal does not acknowledge said governor's authority as it derives from the Khedive, whom Brentaal does not recognize.

You understand my dilemma here, Senator Ordan? My hands are tied in this matter until we achieve legitimization.

Toben Domon
Senator, Sluis Van

Senator_Ordan

Date: Sunday, 25 Dec 2011, 10:40 AM | Message # 21

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Doesn't the consent to Govern come from the people? Why not hold a Gubernatorial election? Let the people decide! Surely neither side can deny popular sovereignty?

Toben-Domon

Date: Sunday, 25 Dec 2011, 10:49 AM | Message # 22

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Senator Ordan, a governor can be appointed easily enough, but it is the people who have the right to speak against the man, woman or Sluissi should they feel the governor is a bad influence. Throughout the Sluis Sector, regular checks are made to ensure that no planetary governor or official is engaged in acts of corruption. Of course, we are all sentient beings and as such, fall prey to such things, but the Sluis Sector can proudly say it is among the top ten sectors of the galaxy in regards to lack of corruption in elected and appointed officials.

As for an election, that is not the issue at hand. The issue is legitimization of the Khedive's authority; one thing at a time, Senator. One thing at a time.

Toben Domon
Senator, Sluis Van

Senator_Ordan

Date: Sunday, 25 Dec 2011, 11:04 AM | Message # 23

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Senator Domon. You are saying you need to change the status quo because of a trade dispute. But that resolving te trade dispute is not relevant? I believe a properl mediated solution would be much more desirable than imperial recognition. I say we fix the one situation so that the Sector is in a state of peace and amity before we make any decision regarding it as a Senate. The issue at hand are the reasons you seek imperial backing, and I believe they are wrong ones.

You seek support to help you out of a crisis. I say it's your crisis to solve which could better and more efficiently be solved by democracy an a directly elected governor should be emplaced by the people of Praesitlyn. Then once the dispute is over we should consider if this measure is truly needed. I see no reason for the Empire to take sides on your trade dispute! I see no reason aside from your government seeking to circumvent an amicable solution by an appeal to higher authority. Its not right to back either side, both sides should come to a negotiating table and resolve this. They should be grown up an not "fetch daddy to side with me".

Toben-Domon

Date: Sunday, 25 Dec 2011, 9:27 PM | Message # 24

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Senator Ordan, once again you misunderstand me. We do not seek to change any form of status quo due to a trade dispute. Rather, this trade dispute has enlightened us to a gaping hole in the procedure of law and authority that is now being exploited. The trade dispute can more than easily be handled once we hold the same status as Brentaal, which is part of the issue.

We are hardly playing this 'fetch daddy' game, Senator. Whether or not Praesitlyn had an appointed governor or elected governor, the result would still be the same: the governor's authority stems from the Khedive, who is not recognized yet. Once this is fixed, we are more than willing to hold an election.

Toben Domon
Senator, Sluis Van

Senator_Ordan

Date: Sunday, 25 Dec 2011, 9:38 PM | Message # 25

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No. No. No. If the people of Praesitlyn elected a Governor then it would be an expression of their sovereignty. It would not be derived from the Khedive of the Sector, it would be derived from the people themselves and not from the Khedive.

In this case power would come from the governed on Praesitlyn. Not the Khedive. If you had an election then the power would be derived from the people, by the people, for the people of Praesitlyn. The notion that an elected Governor of Praesitlyn would derive authority from the Khedive is nonsense!

LomenRyuun

Date: Sunday, 25 Dec 2011, 10:26 PM | Message # 26

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Stop badgering the man, Ordan. Can't you see he has a point? Obviously the people of Praesitlyn accept their appointed governor, and just as obvious is the fact that there is no issue with ultimate authority stemming from their Khedive. Think of it as being akin to a Moff appointing a planetary governor; it's not unheard of. I'll add as well that Praesitlyn has no standing military and no defensive vessels. They're a small, lowly-populated world, Senator. Let them keep what works instead of trying to fix what isn't broken. I believe you said that earlier. Perhaps we can all return to the issue at hand, the legitimization of the Khedive's authority?

If all this plans on devolving into a squabble over a planetary governor, I will ask the chair to call the vote and halt this rabble-rousing.

Lomen Ryuun
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Senator_Ordan

Date: Tuesday, 27 Dec 2011, 12:58 PM | Message # 27

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If you and Mr Domon want to conspire to discourage debate then good luck to you! Your side simply seems to be ignoring the fact that Brentaal could not ignore the direct popular sovereignty of an elected (not appointed) governor. To claim a governor who is elected derives his power from anywhere else other than his people is a nonsense and I know Reuke would say the same. These are not two separate issues (as you have made plain by your protestations that you need one to solve the other).

For once, I don't think interventionism is right here. I think this is a time to stand back and let the situation resolve itself and let the two parties mediate a solution. I will not vote to back an official merely to give him political capital. Elect a governor and that solves your problem, it's not right to pass a senate motion for this.

I know a lot of my detractors may oppose me merely because this is an opinion espoused by Mr Ordan, but in this case it's a simple and logical one. I urge the parties to consider that just as they say "being an Alien does not make Mr Domon wrong" they should also consider "being an Alien does not make Mr Domon right". Just as gold is gold whoever owns it I urge my fellows to recognize Mr Domon's argument as fools gold, and recognize that this will worsen an existing trade dispute.

I call for a mediated end to the Khedive's problems via debate, not by citing higher authority. And thus I vote against this motion.

Senator_Cambrist

Date: Tuesday, 27 Dec 2011, 9:44 PM | Message # 28

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I have decided to recuse myself from this measure provided that Senator Domon does the same. However, I do concur with Senator Ordan that it's unfortunate to see this issue raised in this venue and at this time, when a peaceful solution to this simple dispute on Praesitlyn is desired by, well, certainly Brentaal. I've been diplomatic with my words on this issue, whereas Senator Domon has repeatedly implied that he or his "Khedive" may rouse the people of Praesitlyn to paranoia and violence. This is counter-productive, as is this measure. And so are the misrepresentations I've heard about Brentaal's dispute with Praesitlyn (if "dispute" isn't a misnomer, as I suspect it is; Brentaal is obviously in the right, as I shall explain).

Prospectors from Brentaal have submitted claims to the Imperial Bureau of Resources for the unclaimed resources on certain tracts of land on Praesitlyn. Yes, some persons reside on this land, but as far as I know the prospectors have no plans to evict anyone, or even the power to do so. This is about the extraction of carbon, timber, and other resources. It would appear the "Khedive" of the Sluis Sector promised this land and these resources to those who reside there, but the "Khedive" has no power to do this and I don't see how industrious prospectors from Brentaal are to blame for this.

I'm not insensitive to Senator Domon's predicament, but nor am I to blame for it. I've agreed with Senator Domon that it's important for the Sluis Sector that this ambiguity about the "Khedive" be resolved, and the Empire should clarify whether it does or doesn't recognize this "Khedive." I'm not very opinionated on this question—the claims were submitted legitimately, and whether the "Khedive" is recognized from this point on or whether a Governor of Praesitlyn is elected is immaterial to this dispute, in my opinion—except what I said earlier, and here I agree with Senator Ordan, that this isn't an issue that the Senate should decide for the Empire.

Verence_Terrawin

Date: Wednesday, 28 Dec 2011, 8:42 AM | Message # 29

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I vote against this proposal for the following reasons:

- Imperial Courts offer arbitration on matters of Justice, even if we did recognise a Khedive his role could only ever be as an executive, not judiciary.
- I believe it is not good precedent to become involved in conflicts where there is no immediate risk of military action, this is a trade dispute and not one for the Senate to meddle in.
- I'd like to see a referendum of the people of the Sector to see if they want Imperial recognition for the Khedive, if they do then I would vote to recognise him, so far this is not clear that in fact it is the wish of the people to seek Senatorial backing.
- Requests for recognition are more properly addressed to the Emperor, Ruling Council or Diplomatic Corps, not the Senate, I think this may be outside of our mandate.

Verence Terrawin

Senator of Alsakan
First Lord of the Foreign Office, Alsakan

Roman_Lekpin

Date: Sunday, 01 Jan 2012, 1:18 AM | Message # 30

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For the time being, Lorrd chooses to abstain from voting. However, I feel this is a good time to speak my piece. I agree, Senator Terrawin, that the Imperial Courts are the arbitrators and indeed that we should not meddle in a trade dispute.

That being said, the Khedive must be recognized, at least as an executive if the Sluis Sector is to remain efficient. The issues that arise from the Khedive's currently seen as lack of authority could throw the sector into chaos. As for not meddling; certainly, Senators, you see the powder keg this situation could easily turn into. I, for one, would fight for my home if I felt threatened. We do not need another Embaril on our hands, gentlebeings.

I believe it is fully within our mandate and with good conscience that we should vote for this measure, and Lorrd encourages all sentient beings of wisdom to do so.

Roman Lekpin
Representative, Lorrd (11 BBY-10 BBY) (9 BBY-Present)
Chosen of House Garth