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The Protection Act
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| Alyn_Stark | Date: Tuesday, 19 Jun 2012, 1:46 PM | Message # 1 |
 Generalissimo
Group: Users
Messages: 1359
Status: Offline
| The Protection of Artistic and Scientific Institutions and Historical Monuments Amendment
Statement-
- To provide an understanding that defense of cultural objects is more important than defense in its traditional meaning, and the protection of culture always has precedence over any military necessity. This amendment is meant to supplement The Protection of Civilians in Conflicts (Inter-Planetary) Act proposed by Senator Bernard Oriel.
Purpose-
- To ensure the safety and security of artistic and scientific institutions and historical monuments during an armed conflict.
Article I-
- The historic monuments, museums, scientific, artistic, educational and cultural institutions shall be considered as neutral and as such respected and protected by belligerents. The same respect and protection shall be due to the personnel of the institutions mentioned above. The same respect and protection shall be accorded to the historic monuments, museums, scientific, artistic, educational and cultural institutions in time of peace as well as in war.
Article II-
- The neutrality of, and protection and respect due to, the monuments and institutions mentioned in the preceding article, shall be recognized in the entire expanse of territories subject to the sovereignty of the Galactic Empire, without any discrimination as to the planetary allegiance of said monuments and institutions. The respective planetary governments agree to adopt the measures of internal legislation necessary to insure said protection and respect.
Article III-
- In order to identify the monuments and institutions mentioned in Article I, use may be made of a distinctive mark (a blue 'C' placed on the roof) in accordance with the model attached to this treaty.
Article IV-
- The planetary governments of the Galactic Empire shall send to the Committee on Monuments and Memorials a requested list of the monuments and institutions for which they desire the protection agreed to in this treaty. The Committee on Monuments and Memorials shall also send the list of monuments and institutions mentioned in this article to planetary governments and shall inform the other governments of any changes in said list.
Article V-
- The monuments and institutions mentioned in Article I shall cease to enjoy the privileges recognized in the present act in case they are made use of for military purposes.
Definitions-
- Military necessity is defined as an attack or action that must be intended to help in the military defeat of the enemy; an attack on a military objective and the harm caused to civilians or civilian property must be proportional and not excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated.
Alyn Stark
Lord of Kinyov
Senior Captain, Retired, Republic Navy
Head of House Malos (former)
Licensed bounty hunter
Majority shareholder, Lorrd Engineering
Owner, Stark Defense Conglomerate
Civilian Medal of Honor recipient
Representative, Lorrd (10 BBY-9 BBY)
Message edited by Alyn_Stark - Wednesday, 20 Jun 2012, 1:51 PM |
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| Ilanah_Thanatos | Date: Tuesday, 19 Jun 2012, 6:00 PM | Message # 2 |
 Colonel general
Group: Users
Messages: 891
Status: Offline
| Representative Stark-
This is a very well thought out proposal. I appreciate your consideration for historical sites that could be damaged or destroyed during conflicts. Chandrila votes in favor.
Ilanah R. Thanatos
Senator of Chandrila
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| Schmuel_Kadram | Date: Wednesday, 20 Jun 2012, 5:07 AM | Message # 3 |
 Lieutenant
Group: Users
Messages: 68
Status: Offline
| Um... If I may, esteemed Senator.. Surely this is covered by present legislation (if they are civilian facilities)?
Schmuel Kadram
Governor of Rothana
Junior Vice President of Operations KDY
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| Alyn_Stark | Date: Wednesday, 20 Jun 2012, 5:10 AM | Message # 4 |
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Generalissimo
Group: Users
Messages: 1359
Status: Offline
| I have not yet seen present legislation that covers this matter, Governor Kadram. Even so, consider this act as an additional form of protection for the above-mentioned institutions. One can never be too careful these days.
Alyn Stark
Lord of Kinyov
Senior Captain, Retired, Republic Navy
Head of House Malos (former)
Licensed bounty hunter
Majority shareholder, Lorrd Engineering
Owner, Stark Defense Conglomerate
Civilian Medal of Honor recipient
Representative, Lorrd (10 BBY-9 BBY)
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| Bernard_Oriel | Date: Wednesday, 20 Jun 2012, 5:10 AM | Message # 5 |
 Colonel general
Group: Users
Messages: 803
Status: Offline
| Correct, Senator Kadram. Civilian monuments and sites of historical importance would indeed qualify for protection under my previous legislation.
Bernard Oriel
Senator for the Planet of Vjun
1st Earl Malreaux (Second Creation)
Vjun Delegation to the Imperial Senate
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| LomenRyuun | Date: Wednesday, 20 Jun 2012, 5:13 AM | Message # 6 |
 Lieutenant general
Group: Users
Messages: 696
Status: Offline
| Representative Stark, Senator Oriel does have a point of sorts, but his legislation is a bit vague in some cases. Your bill in this point seems to expand upon what he has laid out and as such, I am willing to vote in favor of it. His legislation is aimed specifically at civilians while yours appears to be based more upon the actual structures themselves.
Lomen Ryuun
Senator, Doldur Sector
Senator, Druckenwell
Representative, Monor II (10 BBY - 9 BBY)
Representative, Geridard
Representative, Boranall
Representative, Therenor Prime
Vice-chairman, Defense Committee (Temporarily suspended)
Controlling Shareholder - Druckenwell Arms Corporation
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| Bernard_Oriel | Date: Wednesday, 20 Jun 2012, 5:15 AM | Message # 7 |
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Colonel general
Group: Users
Messages: 803
Status: Offline
| Vague in what respect? It is vastly more expansive in it's coverage of all civilian facilities - why legislate by creating distinctions between different "classes" of civilian property. Civilian property is civilian property and if it is not invested in one side or the other of a conflict it should in all circumstances be immune, whether it be a university, school, hospital, granary etc.
Bernard Oriel
Senator for the Planet of Vjun
1st Earl Malreaux (Second Creation)
Vjun Delegation to the Imperial Senate
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| Alyn_Stark | Date: Wednesday, 20 Jun 2012, 5:21 AM | Message # 8 |
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Generalissimo
Group: Users
Messages: 1359
Status: Offline
| Perhaps it is my background, Senator Oriel, but I tend to differ slightly in matters of opinion. I chose to single out historical monuments, which I believe your legislation did not cover specifically, as well as artistic and scientific institutions because of the fact that, in urban conflicts, military forces can utilize martial law to commandeer certain civilian structures such as evacuated housing, schools and so forth, the exception to this being, I believe, hospital facilities.
I am attempting to create a legislation that will specifically safeguard the aforementioned historical monuments, museums, scientific institutions and so forth. While I find your act to be well-written and planned out, it seems to be aimed more towards the welfare of civilians themselves; to ensure they are kept from as much harm as possible during an inter-planetary conflict. I note this in your description of indiscriminate attacks. I am targeting the actual structures and personnel of said structures rather than the generalized whole, which can offer a loophole.
Alyn Stark
Lord of Kinyov
Senior Captain, Retired, Republic Navy
Head of House Malos (former)
Licensed bounty hunter
Majority shareholder, Lorrd Engineering
Owner, Stark Defense Conglomerate
Civilian Medal of Honor recipient
Representative, Lorrd (10 BBY-9 BBY)
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| Bernard_Oriel | Date: Wednesday, 20 Jun 2012, 5:28 AM | Message # 9 |
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Colonel general
Group: Users
Messages: 803
Status: Offline
| While they may not be covered specifically, they are covered within the scope of the act which protects all civilian property, if you read the act, it does have provisions for buildings which become occupied by the military of for false marking of a location as civilian. If you note, there are specific provisions for civilian structures.
Quote (Bernard_Oriel) 6. The parties shall make every effort to inform eachother if an area contains civilians. Civilians shall be urged to mark their own buildings or areas with a blue C placed on their roof in order to signify that an area contains civilians. Falsely identifying a structure as civilian shall be considered illegal and will cause any combatants found to do so to be denied the protection of being considered "Prisoners of War"
Quote (Bernard_Oriel) 2. Indiscriminate attacks are prohibited.
Indiscriminate attacks are:
- those which are not directed at a specific military objective;
- those which employ a method or means of combat which cannot be directed at a specific military objective; or
- those which employ a method or means of combat the effects of which cannot be limited as required by this Protocol; and consequently, in each such case, are of a nature to strike military objectives and civilians or civilian objects without distinction.
Thus it must be noted that any and all attacks not specifically targeted on military targets are illegal under current law, universities, monuments, hospitals etc are civilian property and house the civilian population and are thus explicitly protected.
Bernard Oriel
Senator for the Planet of Vjun
1st Earl Malreaux (Second Creation)
Vjun Delegation to the Imperial Senate
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| Alyn_Stark | Date: Wednesday, 20 Jun 2012, 8:34 AM | Message # 10 |
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Generalissimo
Group: Users
Messages: 1359
Status: Offline
| In that case, consider this an additional amendment to your act, furthering the aims of your own legislation. It can't hardly hurt, Senator Oriel.
Alyn Stark
Lord of Kinyov
Senior Captain, Retired, Republic Navy
Head of House Malos (former)
Licensed bounty hunter
Majority shareholder, Lorrd Engineering
Owner, Stark Defense Conglomerate
Civilian Medal of Honor recipient
Representative, Lorrd (10 BBY-9 BBY)
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| Toben-Domon | Date: Wednesday, 20 Jun 2012, 8:45 AM | Message # 11 |
 Major general
Group: Users
Messages: 347
Status: Offline
| If I may ask a question, Senator Oriel? I do not see within your bill where it states that historical monuments and institutions of scientific or artistic build cannot be commandeered as military structures if the need for utilization arises. It simply says that efforts in combat will be made to avoid marked structures and that indiscriminate attacks against protected structures are allowed. What if, say, a military commander seizes such institutions or monuments before they can be marked as such?
Representative Stark has made a valid point by declaring them as neutral structures and, if I assume correctly, thereby rendering them unusable as military strong points. After all, one could question whether or not a monument, university or such is truly 'civilian property' or 'state property' depending on certain factors. While I see no need for this to be a replacement bill to your own legislation, I can certainly agree that it makes a helpful amendment.
Sluis Van votes in favor.
Toben Domon
Senator, Sluis Van
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| Senator_Cambrist | Date: Wednesday, 20 Jun 2012, 11:11 AM | Message # 12 |
 Lieutenant general
Group: Users
Messages: 761
Status: Offline
| I find it preferable to work within the framework of Senator Oriel's bill rather than the incongruous language proposed here, and for this reason; namely, these "lists" of historical or cultural sites may conveniently include ammunition dumps or turbolaser emplacements that a planet wants to shield from attack. There must be an arbiter of historical and cultural value, and indeed there is—the Committee on Monuments and Memorials, which determines what is and isn't an historical or cultural site. These "lists" should, in fact, be requests submitted to the Committee for its consideration. Moreover, the Committee should consider these requests in a manner that assigns priority to the Core Worlds, a region of greater historical and cultural significance.
If Senator Stark wishes to incorporate this into Senator Oriel's legislation, I wouldn't be opposed to it. But new language would be needed, since this is clearly intended as a "new" law and doesn't include the amendments I've touched upon above. Senator Domon, I know you're a being who reveres procedure—might you agree with me and change your vote to against? (I can't help but note, you see, that the Senators of Sluis Van and Druckenwell are, once again, of a feather in support of Senator Stark. A curious happenstance, this is).
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| Alyn_Stark | Date: Wednesday, 20 Jun 2012, 1:45 PM | Message # 13 |
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Generalissimo
Group: Users
Messages: 1359
Status: Offline
| As you mentioned, Senator Cambrist, certain changes have been made to the legislation. Firstly, the method of marking these sites has been altered to adopt Senator Oriel's method, that of a blue 'C' upon the roof. Secondly, instead of stating that a list would be submitted to the Galactic Empire, this portion has been altered under Article IV to be a requested list of said structures that they wish to be protected. The Committee will then be responsible for distributing the information to planetary governments in turn.
I personally see no need to show the Core Worlds favoritism in the form of priority, but if the Senate feels strongly enough about the issue, then I shall place that amendment within the act.
Alyn Stark
Lord of Kinyov
Senior Captain, Retired, Republic Navy
Head of House Malos (former)
Licensed bounty hunter
Majority shareholder, Lorrd Engineering
Owner, Stark Defense Conglomerate
Civilian Medal of Honor recipient
Representative, Lorrd (10 BBY-9 BBY)
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| Toben-Domon | Date: Wednesday, 20 Jun 2012, 1:49 PM | Message # 14 |
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Major general
Group: Users
Messages: 347
Status: Offline
| I am indeed fond of procedure, Senator Cambrist. I don't see what my vote and that of Senator Ryuun coinciding in favor of Representative Stark on more than one issue have to do with anything in this case though. I understand reason and, while I have no qualms with Senator Oriel's legislation, Representative Stark did make several good points. With a bit of wording change as he mentions having completed, what flaw is there in the system? Technically, should we not hear from Senator Fowlkes who is, I still believe, head of the Committee on Monuments and Memorials?
If you can show me where a distinct lack of procedure exists, then I would be more inclined to change my vote.
Toben Domon
Senator, Sluis Van
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| Senator_Cambrist | Date: Wednesday, 20 Jun 2012, 7:36 PM | Message # 15 |
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Lieutenant general
Group: Users
Messages: 761
Status: Offline
| Pardon me, when I said "procedure" I meant "protocol." The correct protocol here would be to defer to Senator Oriel's legislation and re-work the current proposal as an amendment to it. I see that Senator Stark has made some changes to accommodate Senator Oriel's legislation, but I'm not convinced a re-write isn't what's needed.
And the fact is, Senator Stark, the Core is ancient—it is the cradle of sentience and, naturally, it has a richer cultural history than the more recently-populated rims. There are also far more rim worlds than Core Worlds, hence assigning priority to the Core is actually more fair, since the largest volume of monument and memorial petitions originate elsewhere and the Core would be at a disadvantage otherwise.
I'd also like to hear from Senator Fowlkes, if he pleases. Though it's my understanding the Senator's committee only nominates monuments and memorials, and that it's COMPNOR that makes the final decision.
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