The Capital Vessels Act
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Bernard_Oriel | Date: Tuesday, 02 Nov 2010, 1:38 AM | Message # 1 |
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| The Oriel/Cambrist/Ryuun Capital Vessels Act
An Act to Clarify Imperial Policy on Private and Planetary Ownership of Capital Vessels.
This is an Empire formed on stability, and its continuing stability appears to be threatened by a rising tide of ownership of poor-quality substandard ships by member worlds, this threatens not only their own safety, but the safety of the Empire as a whole.
Capital ships are defined as any armed starship that has served (or is intended to serve) in a military capacity in either the Imperial, Republic or Other Military forces with a length greater than one hundred meters (If a query is raised with regard to status of any particular vessel or class, it should be referred to the Defence Council for a ruling). Furthermore, these vessels can not be declared as private yachts. This shall not pertain to armed commerce vessels, which shall be seen as distinct. 1. Private ownership of all Capital-class vessels will be prohibited. (repealed)
2. Planets may own a number of capital-class vessels for defence, as is their hiereditary right. However, they are not entitled to maintain a fleet which could be used for acts of aggression against other member worlds of the Galactic Empire.
(a) This would mean that a world might (repealed)
3. Sales of capital-class ships may only be made to member worlds if they are considered defensive ships.
(a) Thus the sale of ships with excessive compliments of fighters or landing ships will be prohibited.
(b) An exemption shall exist, if said vessels are modified to be "defensive ships", responsibility shall be vested in all member worlds to bring any vessels they purchase or own in line with the regulations governing "defensive ships".
An example of this would be removing the main door opening mechanisms on the main door of an Acclamator-class assault ship, and removing its landing and assault craft.
In the case of larger ships such as the Venator it would mean the removal of no less than 90% of its fighter capacity, and the removal of its permenant complement of vehicles.
(c ) Removal of hyperdrive from a vessel would automatically class the vessel as a defensive vessel, equally, downgrading Hyperdrives to a class 15 or above shall be considered a reasonable substitute.
(d) Planets shall be encouraged to maintain static defensive emplacements, rather than mobile vessels which have the potential for aggression.
(e) Heavy Turbolasers such as the DBY-827 and quad turbolasers shall be removed from ships posessed by planetary vessels and replaced with standard single turbolaser emplacements. It being desirable that vessels are able to maintain firepower suitable to defend them from even serious pirate raids, but not firepower which would allow them to pursue war against other worlds or risk Imperial stability should they come under the control of rebellious elements. (repealed)
4. The outdated vessels of the clone-wars must be phased out at the earliest opportunity.
5. Worlds shall be urged to maintain the minimum possible mobile fleet, and shall be given the incentive to do so.
6. All Capital-class ships of Planetary fleets must have an Imperial Political Officer aboard the bridge, who will be vested with the power to take command should the captain of the vessel act in an unsuitable manner.
7. All Planets who wish to maintain a fleet must have an Imperial attache to their military command. All communications to and from capital-class vessels will be recorded and may be monitored. (repealed)
8. Planetary forces will be considered to be an auxilliary to the Imperial Navy and Sector Fleets, they may be commanded and mobilised by an Imperial Officer of appropriate rank (0-3, with the signed orders of an officer ranking at least 0-7).
9. The Imperial Naval Ranking system will be applied to planetary fleets.
10. An Imperial Officer will always be considered the senior officer on a joint operation, unless command is delegated to planetary officer by the appropriate authority (0-7) or above.
11. If a state of emergency is declared by the sector Moff, commanding officers (and/or bridge crews) of planetary ships may be replaced by Imperial Officers, in order to assure these vessels are able to cooperate with the Imperial Navy sucessfully for the duration of the emergency.
Bernard Oriel Senator for the Planet of Vjun 1st Earl Malreaux (Second Creation) Vjun Delegation to the Imperial Senate
Message edited by Bernard_Oriel - Thursday, 11 Nov 2010, 6:00 PM |
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Crin_Star | Date: Tuesday, 02 Nov 2010, 4:28 AM | Message # 2 |
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| "While I like some of the provisions included in this measure such as the Imperial officer stationed on the capitol ship of planetary fleets some such as lowering the armaments of the defensive ships and keeping planets from maintaining a effective deterent to attacks on their soveriegnty and to be able to enforce their own and Imperial laws. The senate has already agreed that increased security is needed around planets and I would be remiss to see any planets defenses weakened. So I will be voting against this measure due to certain provisions. But that is not final as I would be willing to change my vote depending on the status of provision 2 section e, and provision 5. "
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Bernard_Oriel | Date: Tuesday, 02 Nov 2010, 12:37 PM | Message # 3 |
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| If I could help to alay your concerns Mr Star, this is a measure to strengthen planetary defenses and cohesiveness. Allow me to address your concerns. Section 2:E. This is a measure which is designed to assure that worlds are unable to present fire which could be damaging to our own Imperial fleet. A Venator, downgraded to a defensive ship would have the following weapons: Single Turbolaser Turret (8) Medium dual turbolaser cannons (2) Point-defense laser cannons (52) Tractor beam projectors (6) Heavy proton torpedo tubes (4) With a fighter compliment of: ARC-170 Fighters (4) Alpha-3 Nimbus-class V-wing or V-19 Torrent starfighters (20) Gentlemen, even so downgraded, this offers a vessel of immense power, which has the ability to provide all the defensive fire that could ever be needed by a world to repel any aggressors. However, this vessel is now relegated to the role of an anti-piracy vessel, it could never challenge a true capital-class starship in battle. This is an important modification.. what if (and I hope this never happens in reality) a rebel was able to gain control over such a vessel? Or a Pirate? And it was unmodified.. it could cause a significant problem before our benevolent fleet was able to destroy it and assure the common security. We must reduce the risks to the Imperial Fleet and the Empire, while allowing for planetary defence.. I would highlight that this is why Provision 2 Section E is important. The last thing we would wish for would be for rebels to be able to abscond with a fully armed capital ship or for such ships to follow a world in rebellion. Now, with regards to section 5. Section 5 is also important. Why should a world be allowed to maintain an aggressive fleet? Surely the only reason for any worlds fleet is to provide for the defence of its people.. not to be launching assaults outside its jurisdiction. As such, strategically placed space stations, with suitable fighter compliments are the ideal defensive set up, and one which satisfies the requirement for the planets defence and also the common defence. It is wholly inappropriate that worlds should maintain an aggressive force. Before the argument that "pirates must be pursued" is made, I would highlight that piracy outside of a system is a Sector matter, and it is the role of a Sector Governor, not for an Individual World to pursue and cope with pirates outside of planets jurisdiction.
Bernard Oriel Senator for the Planet of Vjun 1st Earl Malreaux (Second Creation) Vjun Delegation to the Imperial Senate
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Taja_Lohden | Date: Tuesday, 02 Nov 2010, 1:18 PM | Message # 4 |
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| I find myself in a difficult position, as far as this act is concerned. As Senator Star pointed out, this does, in a way, counter-act the motion I myself made for increased security, and while your points about downgraded ships still possessing immense defensive capabilities, many may not see it that way. A fully complemented capital ship is, as you state, a threat if it falls into the wrong hands, but tell me; is it likely that any ragtag band of rebels or pirates could feasibly take control of a fully manned Star Destroyer? I don't know, but if you and others think it so, then very well. Another point I'd like to raise, would be that the Senate is expected to approve the sale of our outdated vessels to planetary defense forces; these new rules would, surely, hinder such efforts? I'm not here to try and counter your well-intentioned act, I'd just like to hear your viewpoint on this before I cast my vote, Senator Oriel.
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Bernard_Oriel | Date: Tuesday, 02 Nov 2010, 1:39 PM | Message # 5 |
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| These rules would not prevent the sales of these outdated vessels. Indeed it is stated that vessels would be configured to the new defensive configurations at the expense of the purchaser. These costs, while minimal (especially since the purchaser stands to regain much of the cost of reconfiguration by selling the weapons removed back to the Imperial Government), will stimulate the shipping industry, and assure that the shipyards see some work from this sale. We must assure that while the Imperial Treasury is boosted by the sale of these ships, that it is not at too great of an expense to the shipwright industry, for if we do not see work is channelled to them, then we risk technological innovation becoming bogged down and risk never advancing technologically. The possibility of rebels coming to control a ship is unlikely, but even so remains possible. Consider that even recently we have seen former Senator Organa rebel.. if one of our own Senators defects in such a heinous manner, then it is perfectly possible that a ships Captain could misguide or fool his crew into acting as a rebellion, aboard a ship, a Captain has a very large amount of power, and so it is logical to restrict his ability to act in the event he did decide to rebel. I would also highlight that there is no Pirate or Mercenary threat that this vessel could not counter, where a fully armed vessel could., we are talking about disorganised mercenaries and pirates, not an organised foe, as such vessels do not need to be armed to fight an organised modern military. And even if there was a modern military threatening the world.. each Sector has a prodigious military, equipped at the expense of the Imperial Purse.. It would be an insult to them to call worlds inadequately defended from such threats. The Important point to raise is that a world should not have the ability to act against another Imperial member unilaterally, and this act will prevent acts of aggression which risk other worlds and the Empire itself. A world has the right to maintain its own defence, not to maintain forces for attack.. This measure would not conflict with your own measures Senator Lohden, but add more regulations to it, and help in the good governance and protection of worlds. I can see no point on which the two acts would clash? But if I am wrong please enlighten me.
Bernard Oriel Senator for the Planet of Vjun 1st Earl Malreaux (Second Creation) Vjun Delegation to the Imperial Senate
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Taja_Lohden | Date: Tuesday, 02 Nov 2010, 1:51 PM | Message # 6 |
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| While our acts would not directly clash, there is something to be said for the complete contradiction of ordering an increase in planetary ground forces while, for lack of a better word, maiming their space defences. I am in complete agreement that no world should have the ability or the means to assault another member world, but the dire fact remains that not all worlds are yet Imperial worlds. There are any number of planetary systems out there which have yet to come under the Imperial banner, and this act could be the stepping stone they're waiting for to claim more territory and ignite conflicts and system defections that we frankly do not need. I would be more in favour of the Imperial Navy simply assuming command of all planetary defense forces, rather than go through the time, effort and expenditure of stripping back and heavily modifying fully capable vessels. I'm afraid I'll have to withhold my vote for the time being, until I'm swayed either way.
Message edited by Taja_Lohden - Tuesday, 02 Nov 2010, 2:09 PM |
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Bernard_Oriel | Date: Tuesday, 02 Nov 2010, 2:09 PM | Message # 7 |
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| I hardly think maiming is a fair term to use. These vessels will simply be reconfigured to prevent them being used in acts of aggression against the empire. It is the role of the Imperial Government or Sector Government to conduct operations against non-Imperial members. Should such a treat emerge, I am fully confident that the Imperial Navy would combat such a threat, and explicitly it should not be the role of a planetary military to combat threats from outside of the Empire. We are proposing no cut that would seriously effect the planetary fleets ability to combat any threat. A world could surround itself with as many defensive snubfighter squadrons, defence platforms, planetary weapons, minefields, monitor vessels.. etc as it wishes.. simply not hyperspace capable behemoths of destruction.. this is a proposal to strengthen defence, to strengthen worlds and to encourage them to channel money into weapon systems that will work in collaboration with your boosted ground forces, rather than ones which would be able to leave them undefended (for whatever reasons). A hyperspace capable capital ship is no better for defence than a non hyperpsace capable one.. A hyperdrive allows the vessel only the ability to leave the system, and leave the world it is "defending" undefended and weakened. So, as you can see, my act promotes your own bill, coercing worlds towards defensive and sensible policies, and discouraging adventurism and irresponsible militaries which only risk those they seek to protect.
Bernard Oriel Senator for the Planet of Vjun 1st Earl Malreaux (Second Creation) Vjun Delegation to the Imperial Senate
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Taja_Lohden | Date: Tuesday, 02 Nov 2010, 2:18 PM | Message # 8 |
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| Thank you, Senator, for addressing my concerns. I now feel I can safely vote in favour without compromising or countermanding previous efforts for security increases.
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Crin_Star | Date: Tuesday, 02 Nov 2010, 2:58 PM | Message # 9 |
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| "I'm sorry to disagree with you senator but in truth a hyperspace capable ship IS more effective in defense than a non-hyperspace capable ship. While the main piece of your legislation would keep these ships from attacking other worlds, it would make 'systems' harder to defend. As I know with Volus we have our own capitol ship built during the clone wars which has served us greatly and it along with some fighters and some stations is the primary defense of Volus and our entire system. As such ships need to be equipped with hyper-drive if at the very least to preform micro-jumps to reach a nearby planet. Next, as for the turbo lasers, yes these ships are incredibly powerful behemoths but so are many of the threats we have faced in the past. And systems or planets should be allowed to maintain a mobile fleet for the purpose that attacks and battles aren't static but continuously fluid. If for instance the people of Volus of a pirate operating base nearby our system we would likely inform the empire but if none of their ships were available we would take care of it ourselves, but with your measure not only would the primary weapons of our ship have to be removed but would also dampen that ability to protect our own system from attacks be it through a early response or taking the fight to the enemy themselves. This is a dangerous galaxy, although the dangers are greatly mitigated by the Empire and its massive armada there are still grave dangers out there and planets should be allowed to maintain their defenses. Instead perhaps of removing portions of our ships we should instead lay down consequences in case a member world attacks another. Such as potential blockade of their planet and ejection from this body."
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LomenRyuun | Date: Tuesday, 02 Nov 2010, 11:30 PM | Message # 10 |
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| No, no and no. Druckenwell is against this measure. Senator, your bill is... quite wordy, if I might say so. There are a number of points I'd like to make in no particular order. First off, the vessels being sold off to planetary defense forces are rapidly hitting the outdated stages, if they have not already. The Imperial Navy is producing better and improved snubfighters and capital ships on a daily basis. The older models simply cannot compare. As such, the issue of stripping weapons is moot. Besides, who is to say they would be sold back to the Empire? A truly rebellious world might well put them to more sinister use. As for rippng out the hyperdrives? Again, pointless. What if one of our esteemed neighboing planets neds rapid aid that can be provided by one of us quicker than the Imperial Starfleet? Point. Finally, you seem to put more faith in insurgets than the Imperial Navy. I feel ou well-equipped naval forces can more than aptly deal with any threat.
Lomen Ryuun Senator, Doldur Sector Senator, Druckenwell Representative, Monor II (10 BBY - 9 BBY) Representative, Geridard Representative, Boranall Representative, Therenor Prime Vice-chairman, Defense Committee (Temporarily suspended) Controlling Shareholder - Druckenwell Arms Corporation
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Artemis_Vanden | Date: Wednesday, 03 Nov 2010, 0:10 AM | Message # 11 |
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| Since the Clone Wars, the galaxy has become inundated with weapons of war. When you prepare for war, Senators, there will be war. The Empire has promised us peace and, thus, we should prepare for peace. I would like to see the galaxy return to where it was before the Clone Wars, in a time when there were few, if any, standing fleets. Some will call me naive, I am sure. They will say that reducing fleets will make us vulnerable—that indeed, fleets are "necessary." But the "necessity" of fleets is self-perpetuating, Senators. It is because warships exist that warships are considered "necessary." The only way to end this tragic tautology is to put an end to warships. It must begin somewhere, and I hope it is here. I vote in favor.
Artemis Vanden Representative of the Naboo
Message edited by Artemis_Vanden - Wednesday, 03 Nov 2010, 0:11 AM |
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Senator_Cambrist | Date: Wednesday, 03 Nov 2010, 2:44 AM | Message # 12 |
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| I am supportive of this measure, although not for the reasons that Representative Vanden is. I will not address the Representative's point because I suspect somewhere among his meaningless platitudes about "preparing for peace" and his cloudy, circular logic, he has already refuted himself. I will address Senator Ryuun, however. It must be understood that, yes, the Empire has changed its strategic profile since the Clone Wars, but not in the manner that you seem to suggest. Indeed, vessels of the Clone Wars era might be called "too much of a good thing" (although Representative Vanden, I'm sure, would characterize it as "too much of a bad thing"). That is to say, the Empire has made a conscious decision with its latest capital ship designs to, in many cases, reduce the number of weapons and accompanying starfighters for cost-saving reasons as well as strategic ones. This is apparent in most Imperial vessels today and, it should be noted, this makes Clone Wars era vessels that much more dangerous if used against them. The removal of some weaponry, thus, is entirely reasonable. Your second point, Senator Ryuun, is refuted by your third. Senator Star, if I may comment on your point about interstellar commerce, on which I am something of an authority (forgive my immodesty), I must note that the instance that you mention regarding a hypothetical pirate base is indeed an Imperial responsibility, not a planetary one. Senator Oriel is correct in this regard. It is not the place of an Imperial world to pose "an early response" and "take the fight to the enemy." Not, that is, without the consent of the local Moff. The Moff, then, would use Imperial vessels to combat the threat. If no Imperial vessels are available, as you suggest, it is all the more important that planetary defense forces remain at the planet they are intended to defend, rather than leaving it vulnerable. However, I feel there are instances in which a hyperdrive is appropriate for a planetary defense vessel. Such vessels are often used to deliver relief supplies to neighboring worlds or systems, for instance. War games with other planets are also useful in keeping these forces sharp. Might I suggest to Senator Oriel, thus, that rather than prohibiting a hyperdrive entirely, a class of perhaps 15 or higher would be permissible? This should be slow enough to deter any hostile overtures while still permitting sufficient operational capability in a local sense. Indeed, this has traditionally been common of planetary defense forces. There is another point that I suspect Senator Oriel means to imply, but that I will do him the favor of saying outright. Imperial worlds must not war among themselves, yes, but they also must not challenge the supremacy of the Empire. The "S" word (secession) is still a danger, if, perhaps, a dormant one. And so it should remain dormant. The Old Republic was permissive of large planetary, commercial, and even private fleets, and this was its downfall. His Majesty saw this happen and, I'm sure, does not wish to see it happen again. Nor do I. Incidentally, I apologize to Senator Veritas that I am raising the points that he and his Defense Committee should be raising, but someone must.
Message edited by Senator_Cambrist - Wednesday, 03 Nov 2010, 2:52 AM |
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LomenRyuun | Date: Wednesday, 03 Nov 2010, 4:09 AM | Message # 13 |
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| Senator Cambrist, my third point refers to the fact that, supreme as they are, the Imperial Starfleet cannot be everywhere at once exactly when needed. It is for this reason that planettary defense forces exist. I still do not concur with removal of weapon systems, but lessening hyperdrive speeds and taking other precautionary measures, such as Imperial chips allowing for coded shutdowns of critical systems, would be sufficient.
Lomen Ryuun Senator, Doldur Sector Senator, Druckenwell Representative, Monor II (10 BBY - 9 BBY) Representative, Geridard Representative, Boranall Representative, Therenor Prime Vice-chairman, Defense Committee (Temporarily suspended) Controlling Shareholder - Druckenwell Arms Corporation
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Milliardo_Peacecraft | Date: Wednesday, 03 Nov 2010, 12:34 PM | Message # 14 |
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| Garos IV must respectfully vote against this measure. We feel as if this act infringes upon our rights to protect our planet and our people. It is a matter of being self sufficient. We are a proud people, to a fault some may say, we do not wish to beg people for help in defending ourselves. In previous acts proposed in this body, the issuance of aid to those planets in need has been under fire. If we as a governing body wish not to help each other or others in need. I feel that by limiting ships and ultimately fleets, it will only cause planets to depend on the Imperial Fleet far too much. It will cause the Imperial fleet to become over stretched and could lead to bigger issues in the future. For this reason, Garos IV, is voting against this motion. Milliardo Peacecraft Representative, Garos IV
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Titus_Veritas | Date: Wednesday, 03 Nov 2010, 4:30 PM | Message # 15 |
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| Citing the cost of modifying craft that have been prepped for sale (they have already been modified to an extent, as Senator Cambrist has pointed out), the limitation this would press upon several of our member governments, and the already existing statutes regarding the actions of local military forces, the Defense Committee recommends that this bill should not be passed. The Defense Committee works everyday with ISB and Intelligence, and we monitor local military forces closely, and we handle anyone getting out of hand very quickly. I do see the concerns present however, and the the Defense Committee will work on a counter legislation that will address the concerns of the Senate, and take care of any loop holes currently in the system. I vote against.
Viceroy Titus Veritas, House Veritas Consul of the House of Lords
Former Senator of Deralia and the Tammuz Sector (50 BBY - 30 BBY, 18 BBY - 10 BBY) Former Chairman of the Imperial Senate Defense Committee (18 BBY - 10 BBY)
Message edited by TitusVeritas - Wednesday, 03 Nov 2010, 4:45 PM |
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