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Repeal of the Deralian Chastisement Act
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| Eli_Fitzgerald | Date: Tuesday, 24 Jan 2012, 5:33 PM | Message # 31 |
 Major general
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| I'm glad Senator Cerra retracted those remarks. I join her in voting in favor of this repeal for the reasons I mentioned a moment ago. Also, doesn't the Cronese Mandate have an obvious financial interest in voting against this? If the bill is repealed Deralia may seek to recover the funds it was required to pay the Mandate. Shouldn't the Mandate recuse itself from voting on this?
Eli Fitzgerald
Senator of Ralltiir (10 BBY—Present)
"I was elected to do some flamethrowing in the Senate. To a light a fire under those Senators and make it hot for them."
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| Bernard_Oriel | Date: Tuesday, 24 Jan 2012, 5:55 PM | Message # 32 |
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| Let the Chamber note that Garos IV and Ralltiir are voting in favour of state terrorism against the people of Dantooine going unpunished. Senator Fitzgerald claims these "principles" such as opposing slavery, but is not opposed to the taking of life with no cause by one world against another. Senators, what Deralia did was state sponsored murder, and to allow it to get away with state sponsored murder cannot stand.
Bernard Oriel
Senator for the Planet of Vjun
1st Earl Malreaux (Second Creation)
Vjun Delegation to the Imperial Senate
Message edited by Bernard_Oriel - Tuesday, 24 Jan 2012, 5:57 PM |
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| Eli_Fitzgerald | Date: Tuesday, 24 Jan 2012, 7:36 PM | Message # 33 |
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| Quote (Eli_Fitzgerald) No one opposed Deralia's adventure at Dantooine more than me. Deralia still hasn't explained itself or come clean about its special operations on Dantooine, and it deserves to be punished for what it did.
We can punish Deralia for what it did without compromising the rights of all Imperial worlds. Considering the impressive failure of Deralia's operation at Dantooine, Ralltiir is more concerned about the danger of this precedent than the "danger" of Deralia.
Ralltiir was a vocal supporter of Dantooine in the crisis and supplied it with weapons to fight and kill the Deralians. The people of Dantooine who died need to be avenged, but this isn't the way to do it. I've said this already.
Eli Fitzgerald
Senator of Ralltiir (10 BBY—Present)
"I was elected to do some flamethrowing in the Senate. To a light a fire under those Senators and make it hot for them."
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| Bernard_Oriel | Date: Tuesday, 24 Jan 2012, 7:52 PM | Message # 34 |
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| How would you punish Deralia?
Do you not think prohibiting it from attacking other worlds alone for three years is not a good step to take to prevent this happening again?
Do you not think it is just that the Deralians should pay a fine for killing Dantooine citizens, in order that it's people can be compensated for their loss and women and children will not be left to beg by the deaths of their husbands.
Do you not think it is right to call upon the Sector Rangers and Empire to assure the rules regarding Deralia are not broken and that the matter is soundly investigated?
Do you not think it is right to assure that Deralia cannot purchase massive weapons of war (which it has shown great willingness to use) without the consultation of the Defense Council?
I do not want to see Deralia "annexing to the Kingdom of Deralia" any more worlds. And yes, these restrictions may be firm, they may be onerous, but for a world which has admitted acting "impulsively", "wrongly" and without any attempt at peaceful reconciliation then I think they are right. Deralia has demonstrated that it is not a responsible military force, ergo it should be constrained from becoming a larger one, or once more an aggressive one.
Bernard Oriel
Senator for the Planet of Vjun
1st Earl Malreaux (Second Creation)
Vjun Delegation to the Imperial Senate
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| Eli_Fitzgerald | Date: Tuesday, 24 Jan 2012, 8:36 PM | Message # 35 |
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| Deralia must pay, and more than just a fine. Yes, it should be fined, the Sector Rangers should look into this, and the Deralians responsible for this should reside uncomfortably in a cell for a long time. But should Deralia be held to standards that other worlds aren't based on the popular opinion of the Senate? No. Should a planet writ large be deprived of the ships it needs to defend itself and told it's not allowed to do so? No. Senator Oriel, if you're serious about punishing Deralia for what it did, as I am, you should compromise with people who agree with you and put together a bill that assures, in our desire for justice, that no injustice is done.
Eli Fitzgerald
Senator of Ralltiir (10 BBY—Present)
"I was elected to do some flamethrowing in the Senate. To a light a fire under those Senators and make it hot for them."
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| Bernard_Oriel | Date: Tuesday, 24 Jan 2012, 8:55 PM | Message # 36 |
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| I am all in favour of compromise to create a useful and effective sanctions regime. However, I do not believe that lifting all sanctions in the way this repeal would is a step in the right direction - we would need new sanctions in place before disestablishing the old ones - surely that is logical. Thus I would ask you to consider refraining from voting in favour of the dropping of all sanctions and to cooperate with me in fashioning an updated set of sanctions.
Deralia is to have a single capital vessel confiscated and given to help defend Dantooine, it also had a minor deduction in the level of it's starfighter corps. These are things which it can easily afford to replace, and I would support it replacing.
I think that it should be noted that Deralia has no commitment to it's own defense (it sent it's whole fleet away, resulting in it being unable to prevent terrorists attacking Celest) - furthermore it has invested it's defense budget in a single massive battleship designed to attack other Capital vessels (and few pirates possess these) instead of distributing it to a number of more useful defensive vessels.
Frankly, I don't see the defense council holding up any procurement by Deralia, but I do think it would be good for them to consider the cases carefully to assess if the vessels purchased are appropriate for Deralia (something with the Deralius Administration has been unable to do). Deralia does not have an elected ruler, and I do not believe that if balloted they would vote in favour of a single-battleship navy which has served them so ill thus far. Let us remember hundreds of Deralians were left to die undefended by the Deralian Government's choice to mount an invasion of Dantooine.
The Deralian Government has shown it's lack of will to defend it's own people, and it's inclination to attack others.
Bernard Oriel
Senator for the Planet of Vjun
1st Earl Malreaux (Second Creation)
Vjun Delegation to the Imperial Senate
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| Eli_Fitzgerald | Date: Tuesday, 24 Jan 2012, 10:19 PM | Message # 37 |
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| Sure, I'll work with you on a set of sanctions to replace these. I'm not against all of the Chastisement Act and I'd rather not have to repeal the whole thing, but Senator Augusta's bill is the bill we have to work with at the moment and I remain in favor of it because I don't think the more dangerous precedents in the Chastisement Act should remain on the books while we're working on a replacement.
We simply disagree on this. If you admit that Deralia can afford to replace its confiscated ships, then the punishment is basically a financial one. So why not just require an equivalent reparation be paid to Dantooine rather than setting a precedent that a planet's ships can be taken from it by popular vote? As for Deralia's defense strategy, I don't disagree with you. This is why I said the Deralians responsible for the Dantooine incident and the Celeste incident belong in prison. It's my understanding that Deralia is handing those responsible over to Imperial courts, so why punish the entire planet for the dereliction of duty of these few Deralians? I seem to remember Senator volFyr making a similar point.
The Chastisement Act makes me uncomfortable, and I must support its repeal and hope we can come up with a set of sanctions to replace it.
Eli Fitzgerald
Senator of Ralltiir (10 BBY—Present)
"I was elected to do some flamethrowing in the Senate. To a light a fire under those Senators and make it hot for them."
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| Bernard_Oriel | Date: Tuesday, 24 Jan 2012, 10:24 PM | Message # 38 |
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| What specific provisions would you support Senator Fitzgerald?
Bernard Oriel
Senator for the Planet of Vjun
1st Earl Malreaux (Second Creation)
Vjun Delegation to the Imperial Senate
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| Augusta_Aurelius | Date: Tuesday, 24 Jan 2012, 10:44 PM | Message # 39 |
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| My fellow delegates, I fear I must first address Senator Cerra's withdrawn remarks. I apologize Your Highness, but I fear the extremity of these remarks, which I do hope were made in parody of the criticism my world is under rather than in a serious claim of political belief, require me to address them. Deralia stands firmly against direct territorial expansion by Imperial member worlds. Deralia also stands firmly in favor of sovereignty. Deralia also stands firmly against Imperialism on the planetary level. Deralia also stands against corruption, at any level, within the Imperial government and its loyal planetary and regional counter-parts. To make such insinuations to the contrary, whether we were right or wrong, is inflammatory and blatantly false, and and actionwhich must be halted, regardless of being in a negative or positive light.
With that done, I must bring to point to the entire Senate's attention, the existance of an apparent schizoid political idealology that is apparently taking hold within this body. Might I refer to Senator volFyr, directly? At the beginning of the month, you proposed the Use of Force by Imperial Worlds Act. While I would read the whole thing aloud, I refer to the very first point of argument of the act, "It is unreasonable to sanction a world for actions taken that were not opposed by the Ruling Council, as Deralia's intended hostilities were not opposed by the Ruling Council. " What has occured in three weeks that has so utterly changed your mindset to the point that you have not only railed against Deralia's attempt to lift these sanctions off of itself that you yourself argued against a mere twenty-two days ago , and have in doing, gone so far to as to call for even further sanctions upon Deralia?
Let us look at the body as a whole, on this matter. The recently proposed Covert Operations and Operatives on a Planetary Scale Act, proposed by Senator Roman Lekpin of Lorrd, which seeks to ban all clandestine activity by any member of the Empire. This bill has seen resoundingly and conclusively unified resistance on a solid set of principles. I would like to refer to a small portion of Senator Ryuun's argument on the bill, "it is each planet's job to protect their own." This is what Deralia did, protected its own. And here we are, bereated time and time again by the Senate for these very ideals, the very beliefs the Senate has expressed itself as a whole and as individuals, have been completely and utterly foresaken in regards to Deralia. Deralia appears to be some sort of special case, for which there is exception.
The proof that has justified our actions is now public. I suggest the Senate consider it in a re-assessment of this act, as well as the utter hypocrisy at hand here. Deralia is not opposed to sanctions, should the Senate still insist, for whatever reason it wishes to invent, for them to be enplaced, however they must be appropriate and not flagrant violations of our constitutional rights under the Imperial Charter.
Augusta Aurelius
Queen Conosrt of Deralia
Chair of the Human Rights Monitoring and Crisis Resolution Sub-Committee of the Planetary Defense Committee
Senator of Deralia and the Tammuz Sector (30 BBY - 18 BBY, 10 BBY - Present)
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| Bernard_Oriel | Date: Tuesday, 24 Jan 2012, 10:59 PM | Message # 40 |
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| Let us thank divine providence that Senator Veritas is no longer in this chamber. I fear the soporific words of Senator Aurelius might have lulled him from this life!
Let the Senate also note that Queen Deralius' world left it's own people to be slaughtered so it could launch a revenge attack against Dantooine for a minor crime of arson - hardly casus belli.
Finally, let the Senate note that the "proof" offered by Deralia is not proof, it is not even evidence. It is a tepid set of vile conjecture lacking any evidential basis. Criminals sacrifice their rights, Deralia's Government betrayed it's own people and attacked the people of Dantooine, it is lucky that the Senate has not made the decision to dethrone the King over this flagrant and unwarranted butchery of his people and the people of Deralia.
Bernard Oriel
Senator for the Planet of Vjun
1st Earl Malreaux (Second Creation)
Vjun Delegation to the Imperial Senate
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| Avram_Kirkwood | Date: Friday, 27 Jan 2012, 11:22 PM | Message # 41 |
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| Regardless of who said what and who did what, the matter remains at the core of this act, whether or not this was a constitutional action. I feel, that is was in fact unconstitutional to proceed in this way, considering the letter of the law was completely followed in this crisis by the Deralian government, and simply... no law was broken. In Favor.
The Honorable Avram W. Kirkwood
Senator of the Cygnus Star Empire
General, Imperial Army (Ret.)
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| Bernard_Oriel | Date: Friday, 27 Jan 2012, 11:31 PM | Message # 42 |
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| It is remarkable that Senator Kirkwood you believe in the "letter of the law" over what is right. Deralia sent men to Dantooine, who slaughtered 12 Militiamen and 24 Civilians before being apprehended or killed. This is not warfare, this is simple terrorism and murder ordered by a state. Worlds must be held to account when they sponsor terrorism.
Thus the execution of the operation was illegal and negligent (in that it committed a war crime) rather than the operation itself was illegal. Worlds which commission war crimes must be punished. And that is why I vote against letting Deralia off for the 24 civilians who lie buried in the dirt because Deralia wanted to attack Dantooine.
Bernard Oriel
Senator for the Planet of Vjun
1st Earl Malreaux (Second Creation)
Vjun Delegation to the Imperial Senate
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| Avram_Kirkwood | Date: Saturday, 28 Jan 2012, 0:24 AM | Message # 43 |
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| As far as I'm aware, this is the first statistic of any deaths occurring during what transpired on Dantooine. Why is it that all of the statistics, all of the claims, all of the news, all of the accusations are coming from yourself on this matter, and not Senator Ray, as he should be doing? It is a rather peculiar situation, leaving me wondering how you are getting information that Senator Ray either doesn't know or faster than he is?
The Honorable Avram W. Kirkwood
Senator of the Cygnus Star Empire
General, Imperial Army (Ret.)
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| Bernard_Oriel | Date: Saturday, 28 Jan 2012, 0:35 AM | Message # 44 |
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| Senator Kirkwood, thirty six men lie dead because of Deralia's illegal raid. It is incredibly petulant of you to decide your position not based on what is right, or on what is legal, but who is speaking the words. Senator, gold is gold whoever's hands it is in, and truth is truth whoever's mouth it is in.
I am Senator Ray's friend and ally as per the RimSec Treaty and there is a healthy level of information sharing between the Vjunite Armada and the Dantooine Militia. I am also (I do not think he will deny this) a vastly more experienced politician on a Galactic level and so am well placed to advocate the Dantooine position. Exar is a plain-spoken, honest Rimdweller, I simply, due to my upbringing in the Tapani Sector I am perhaps more at home in the turbulent waters of Senatorial politics.
It should be noted that Senator Ray is also Administrator of his world and has many duties to attend to, and while he responds to all matters in due course he simply has less time than full time Senators for that side of his tole.
Let it be noted that Senator Kirkwood's claims for the "legality" of this situation have been decisively rebutted. The murder and kidnap of civilians is wrong and illegal under Imperial Law. I am utterly shocked that Senator Kirkwood was seemingly unaware of the Protection of Civilians in Conflicts (Inter-Planetary) Act or it's provisions.
Bernard Oriel
Senator for the Planet of Vjun
1st Earl Malreaux (Second Creation)
Vjun Delegation to the Imperial Senate
Message edited by Bernard_Oriel - Saturday, 28 Jan 2012, 0:37 AM |
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| Avram_Kirkwood | Date: Saturday, 28 Jan 2012, 0:46 AM | Message # 45 |
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| I do not believe it has been proven without doubt that Deralia did actually send in a commando group to Dantooine, Senator Oriel. To assume so, before such is established, is ignorance. The same ignorance that got Deralia into this mess. Two wrongs do not make a right, however Senator, and under no circumstances is it right for the Senate to violate the constitutional rights of the local governments. Even if your public rebuttal holds true, and it turns out that the Deralian commandos did do what you have claimed, all you have done is convince me alternative sanctions should be put in place. I am still yet to see any argument that justifies the violation of constitutional rights in the act.
And all I am saying, regardless of the nature of the situation, that is it extremely unusual for Vjun, regardless of treaty obligations or social standings among you and Senator Ray, to be the only source of information on Dantooine's problem. If this were such a dastardly and horrible event for Dantooine, would it not be appropriate for Senator Ray to be defending his people? Providing the Senate information? We've barely heard Sentor Ray on this entire issue in comparison to yourself, Administrator or not.
The Honorable Avram W. Kirkwood
Senator of the Cygnus Star Empire
General, Imperial Army (Ret.)
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