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Requested Removal of Separatist Vessels
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| Roman_Lekpin | Date: Tuesday, 02 Oct 2012, 3:54 PM | Message # 16 |
 Colonel
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| Please proceed, Moff Boldt. I shall wait until you speak to answer Senator Ordan's questions.
Roman Lekpin
Representative, Lorrd (11 BBY-10 BBY) (9 BBY-Present)
Chosen of House Garth
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| Moff_Boldt | Date: Tuesday, 02 Oct 2012, 4:08 PM | Message # 17 |
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| I approached Senator Lekpin with respect to the Kemix Yard, having observed that the dismantling of Separatist vessels was a priority of his delegation. Being of like mind myself, and seeing an opportunity for mutual gain, I suggested the Kemix Yard be re-purposed for dismantling Separatist vessels and surplus vessels in general, of which the Empire has many in its possession. Needless to say, I would welcome the investment in my sector and the resulting employment. While I claim no authorship of this bill, I do unashamedly advocate on behalf of the Kemix Yard and I hope Senator Ordan and Chairmen Oriel, pro-Imperialists whose work I respect, will see the benefit that I do in Article V.
Vespasian Boldt
Governor of the Yminis Sector
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| Roman_Lekpin | Date: Tuesday, 02 Oct 2012, 4:41 PM | Message # 18 |
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Colonel
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| Very eloquent, Moff Boldt. Senator Ordan, I trust that answers your question about the Kemix Yard.
I have chosen to define 'Separatist vessels' by my own terms and listed the largely applicable vessels which I see fitting into this legislature.
When it comes to scrapping, any extra profits gained from the scrap go to the deconstructing yard. As for the value of the vessel in question? I would estimate three-fourths the cost of the original price would be fair, as the current value would be difficult to assess.
Roman Lekpin
Representative, Lorrd (11 BBY-10 BBY) (9 BBY-Present)
Chosen of House Garth
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| Senator_Ordan | Date: Tuesday, 02 Oct 2012, 4:46 PM | Message # 19 |
 Lieutenant general
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| Moff Boldt. I am quite content with your answer, quite content indeed.
I'd like to offer you the money out of my own pocketbook, Mr Boldt. You're clearly an Imperial Patriot who wishes to create wealth and prosperity in his Sector, I laud this and let it not be said that I ever fail to reward patriotism where I see it. I do feel, in these times that it's best the Imperial Treasury is not strained with additional expenditure if possible; hence my offer - the full whack of the money to be paid in Imperial Credits at your discretion.
I have written to discuss the precise arrangements of the matter. The Anaxsi have ever been eager to help subsidize internal improvements for the Empire, and do not mind putting our hands in our pockets for this one.
Senator Hubert Ordan
__________________________
Senator of the Azure Sector
Foreign Minister of Anaxes
Captain-General of the Azure Interest Protection Squadron
Deputy Chairman of the Ethics Committee
Worshipful Master of the Most Loyal and Honourable Company of Blockadeers
Archtreasurer of the Vault of Pols Anaxes
Autocrat of Selgon
Owner of Azure Durasteel
Systems Admiral (Ret)
Order of the Canted Circle
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| Toben-Domon | Date: Friday, 05 Oct 2012, 9:52 AM | Message # 20 |
 Major general
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| I must say that I am in favor of this legislature as well. It will be a happy day when all Separatist vessels vanish from the galaxy to be replaced by either the Empire's gleaming vessels or the defensive options offered by a different nature.
Toben Domon
Senator, Sluis Van
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| Avram_Kirkwood | Date: Tuesday, 09 Oct 2012, 9:55 AM | Message # 21 |
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| Perhaps I threaten political folly here, however, after careful consideration, I am left wondering; why must we eliminate these vessels? Perhaps a simple question that requires too complicated of an answer, but one nonetheless that must be asked in this debate, which I have yet to have seen honestly asked and answered on the subject, or in any previous debates on the subject matter, in my recollection.
The Honorable Avram W. Kirkwood
Senator of the Cygnus Star Empire
General, Imperial Army (Ret.)
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| Exar_Ray | Date: Tuesday, 09 Oct 2012, 1:43 PM | Message # 22 |
 Major general
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| True, it will be a happy day when CIS vessels are gone from this galaxy. However, such vessels cannot disappear without the burden of consequences about. Multiple planets, to include Dantooine herself, own and operate vessels used by the CIS during their war with the Republic. Why? Simply because they are cheap vessels that can go toe-to-toe with various paramilitary forces to include pirates. I'm sure planets would love to trade in their vessels for that Imperial gray cruiser, however, not everyone is in charge of their own corporations or the head of a very wealthy planet. Senator Kirkwood asks a very good question. Why eliminate them? Can anyone answer that besides giving the same answer of, "they are an evil sight!" Well why? As far as I'm concerned, many planets bring redemption to these vessels. They do not bare CIS colors, launcher fighter droids from them, or being used for war-type purposes. All of the efforts to try and remove them seem, to me, to be the biggest burden of owning these vessels. Is there not a better answer to this?
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| Roman_Lekpin | Date: Tuesday, 09 Oct 2012, 3:56 PM | Message # 23 |
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Colonel
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| A fair question both, Senators, and I shall answer it as best I can. Senator Kirkwood, I will point out that nobody is saying these vessels must be removed. Instead, it is better to say that worlds are being urged to remove these vessels. This act does not denote a mandatory turn-in for any world.
Senator Ray, you bring a wider point to the table, and I shall respond to that as well. Not every world needs to purchase that steely-gray Imperial cruiser; there are a myriad of equally effective lighter vessels quite available in a number of price ranges for any planetary fleet. Lorrd itself utilizes a quartet of Gozanti cruisers for defense. I digress though.
These outdated vessels of war are, by and large, increasingly hard to find parts for, making breakdowns and system failures more difficult or expensive to replace, harming a world's budget even further, or worse, endangering lives if 'home-made' patches are applied to the parts in question.
I will turn to another point though, Senator Ray. Imagine, if you will, you are a stormtrooper who served during the Clone Wars, or a Republic naval officer, or even a clone, who saw action against these vessels, who saw friends and comrades and people you cared about mercilessly struck down by their horrendous weaponry. Now imagine, if you will, being such a person visiting Dantooine and seeing these same vessels, whether used without Separatist colors or droid fighters or even to wage war. A man can only imagine how disheartening it might feel, or cause some to question the patriotism of those worlds who are not willing to replace ships that may have taken the lives of some of their own comrades.
The Separatist era and the Clone Wars are over, Senators. The Empire is the fair light of the galaxy now and the remnants of the disturbing past should be swept aside and buried.
Roman Lekpin
Representative, Lorrd (11 BBY-10 BBY) (9 BBY-Present)
Chosen of House Garth
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| Senator_Ordan | Date: Tuesday, 09 Oct 2012, 4:12 PM | Message # 24 |
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Lieutenant general
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| I must say I agree with Senator Kirkwood. These vessels were built by enemies, but surely in the hands of our friends and guardians they serve to remind us that the forces of Humanity, the Republic, won. Indeed it was reforged in the flames of war and like durasteel became harder and stronger, a Galactic Empire.
Yes, they may serve of reminders of the past, but so long as they are not being operated by Separatists or Ex-Separatists then I see little issue with allowing them to continue to the end of their useful operational lives.
These are, Gentlemen, old ships! In general the ones we see operated by Member fleets are usually medium-grade capital ships and usually in small numbers (such as the Munificent-class and even this ship in castrated form with no main weapons battery - this is a ship that would require six or seven of it's number to engage a Victory or Venator-class in battle, they're now even weaker than this) as patrol vessels or demilitarized (from their Clone Wars Configuration) Lucrehulk-class Battleships, often without engine or hyperspace capacity as space stations or defense platforms. These are old vessels, they are on their way out as it stands, I see no reason why Imperial money ought to push at an unlocked door in this manner.
Let's look at a few of the operators of the classes you list within the Empire:
Lucrehulk-class battleship (to include Droid control Ship and Core Ship variants) - A poor battleship at the best of times this vessel is an upgraded version of the Lucrehulk-class Freighter we've seen plying our spacelanes for decades. It's fairly well shielded but even in the Clone Wars Configuration lacked the ability to direct significant fire in any given direction due to the impractical structure of it's ship. It's operated by Outer Rim Worlds (such as Trandosha and Acherin) as a well armoured storage and customs facility with the ability to project some fire. They're also used as convoy escorts or second-line defensive vessels by the Corporate Sector and the Imperial Starfleet. Current Imperial Law prevents their original threat which as in the fleet of landing craft and droids they could quickly deploy to invade worlds. Furthermore, scrapping a working example would be wasteful when they can be cheaply fully demilitarized and returned to service as Bulk Freighters or Tankers.
Diamond-class cruiser - Imperial Law stops them carrying all but 30 of the large war droids carried. This is a jumped up transport with 2 laser cannons, a threat to nobody. These vessels would be good express couriers and could easily sell for well above the price of scrap generated.
Providence-class carrier/destroyer - A capable vessel comparable to a victory or Venator-class if you go on sheer statistics, the class has an over-inflated reputation based on incorrect original assumptions about it's weapon systems. In anything like an open engagement, the Victory or Venator-class ship could take the Providence-class apart relatively quickly. This is because Imperial and Republic Star Destroyers follow the traditional Dagger design pioneered by Kuat Drive Yards and it's affiliates that maximises the ability to throw maximum fire in any given direction and almost all firepower onboard forward, allowing for a greater effective concentration of fire than the alien-designed "cigar shaped" vessel ever could.
Lucrehulk-class cruiser - A ramshackle design based around the Trade Federation obsession with the Lucrehulk Core Ship. They're not amazing ships by any means and are easily neutralized by true warships.
Lucrehulk-class destroyer - See above
Munificent-class frigate - You know what, I like the Munificent-class, it's a tidy vessel. I like it because it's a fun and interesting vessel to engage and one which unlike almost all CIS ships had a degree of versatility. Maybe because it was the usurious Muuns who, thanks to running many banking systems, were able to at least put together a reasonable small capital ship, mercifully they're not so able in boarding actions; if anyone here wishes to hear the details of my first Engagement of the Clone Wars, during which I as the vessels under my command were in dry dock I lead several corvettes to engage, board and capture a Munificent-class which had sought to raid the port, I would be more than willing to regail them at length. At any rate I can tell you that it's a pretty much run of the mill frigate but which is poorly armed in terms of weapons per meter in comparison to more modern craft. They're pretty simple to operate and maintain, and pose no danger to modern ships if modified as the law requires - actually, if I were to propose a vessel to a developing planet that had not owned a Capital ship before (and didn't have the credits to buy a modern ship or one from the better yards) then they could do a lot worse than purchasing an overhauled example of this line from the Imperial Surplus (Trandosha, the CSA, The Cronese Mandate and others operate these ships in active service). I think it's worth remembering that this ship (while associated with the CIS as it was widely used by them) was also utilized by the Republic Navy at various times.
Recusant-class light destroyer - Similar to the Munificent-class, an effective small patrol ship, stripped of some weapons and much of their compliment by current Law they pose no more threat than a modern DP-20 Gunship or Rothana Corvette in real terms. Extremely fragile, they could be simply rammed apart by an Acclamator-class or above without the latter suffering much damage. They're a barebones ship designed to be produced en-masse and relying on deflectors while eschewing armour, in the Navy they used to call them Nubian grapes, peel off the skin and they're innards are undefended. They're no longer able to carry large numbers of battle droids either. Back in the day we reckoned to be in trouble if half a dozen of these chaps engaged one Victory-class Star Destroyer; with their prow gun gone and fighters reduced? It would require ten to twelve Recusant-class destroyers (if modified to comply with Imperial Law) to engage a Victory or Venator-class, so long as the Captain knew his trade. They're used by the Axum Interest Protection Squadron; we buy a half-dozen captured examples from the Imperial Prize Docks each year, remove their hyperdrives, upgrade the droid brain aboard and then activate them at the edge of a cordoned area in the Azure Sector and let them fight it out with our Fleet as a live-fire exercise.
As for the Kemix Yards clause, you can drop that as I have today written the Sector Moff a cheque for the sum he required to develop his shipyards, for the greater good of the Empire and his Sector.
So, being that certain vessels have been around for tens if not hundreds of years before the Clone Wars and which may have also served with the Republic Navy, Imperial Navy or allied navies (read here, the Lucrehulk-class and Munificent-class especially). Do you not think that it's inappropriate to tar all these ships with the same brush? Take the Providence-class, I'd support paying for them to be dismantled as they were a tangible terror weapon and symbol of fear.
Do you not think then that distinction needs to be made between ships which were used by both sides and ships which were built exclusively by and for the CIS to war against us.
Senator Hubert Ordan
__________________________
Senator of the Azure Sector
Foreign Minister of Anaxes
Captain-General of the Azure Interest Protection Squadron
Deputy Chairman of the Ethics Committee
Worshipful Master of the Most Loyal and Honourable Company of Blockadeers
Archtreasurer of the Vault of Pols Anaxes
Autocrat of Selgon
Owner of Azure Durasteel
Systems Admiral (Ret)
Order of the Canted Circle
Message edited by Senator_Ordan - Tuesday, 09 Oct 2012, 4:12 PM |
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| Johannes_Oswaldt | Date: Saturday, 13 Oct 2012, 9:33 PM | Message # 25 |
 Major general
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| We're going to have to disagree on this one, Hubert. Kirkwood, I don't expect you to understand this, but when you spent hours on the bridge of a Republic cruiser staring into the black of space, your eyes dry from not blinking enough, waiting to see the unmistakable shape of a Luc, a Muni, or a Providence appear from hyperspace with guns primed and pointed at you, or when you're a gunner whose life depends on holding one of those Sep ships in his crosshairs, or a sensors man who sees another Republic ship on his screen disappear because one of those Sep ships vaped it, and knowing his best friend was on that ship, you don't welcome the sight of them in peacetime.
Many of us still have the scars of the Clone Wars on our bodies, but the great promise of the Empire is that the galaxy needn't bear the scars of war, that the past needn't be prologue. When I hear the COMPNOR Youth singing "Tomorrow Belongs to Me," it still brings a tear to my eye. These ships, these symbols of the past, have no place in the glorious New Order we're creating for ourselves and our children.
Might I add it's additionally insulting to veterans of the Clone Wars who return, heads held deservedly-high with victory, to serve with pride in their planet's fleet to be told they have to serve on the very ships they gave their all to destroy. Eriadu would never disrespect its veterans in this way. If another planet wants to do so because it's cheap, fine, but it should absolutely be the policy of the Imperial Senate to discourage the use of these ships.
Johannes Oswaldt
Senator and Governor of Eriadu
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| Senator_Cambrist | Date: Monday, 15 Oct 2012, 8:18 AM | Message # 26 |
 Lieutenant general
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| I'm in agreement with Governor Oswaldt on this, having made a similar point in the past. With the amendments made, Brentaal supports this act as it supports the de-promulgation of Separatist vessels in favor of the latest generation of vessels produced by loyal Imperial contractors. Moreover, this act is not so onerous as to require worlds to retire these ships, nor does it pose an unreasonable expense for the Imperial treasury.
However, I request an additional amendment. "No world claiming compensation under Article III of this act shall be entitled to special lending under Article V of the Self Defense Act." This is to prevent worlds from "doubling up," as it were, on Imperial funding for planetary defense.
Message edited by Senator_Cambrist - Monday, 15 Oct 2012, 8:19 AM |
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| Sate_Pestage | Date: Thursday, 18 Oct 2012, 12:55 PM | Message # 27 |
 Lieutenant general
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| Any amendments, Senator Lekpin? Senator Cambrist's amendment or Senator Ordan's, perhaps?
Sate Pestage
Grand Vizier of the Empire
Assistant to Emperor Palpatine
Chair of the Imperial Senate
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| Roman_Lekpin | Date: Thursday, 18 Oct 2012, 5:54 PM | Message # 28 |
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Colonel
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| Yes, Chairman. I intend to include Senator Cambrist's amendment and as Senator Ordan wishes, I will drop the provision about the Kemix Yard, but there will be no modifications to the list.
Roman Lekpin
Representative, Lorrd (11 BBY-10 BBY) (9 BBY-Present)
Chosen of House Garth
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| Senator_Ordan | Date: Saturday, 27 Oct 2012, 3:02 PM | Message # 29 |
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Lieutenant general
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| My vote is now in Favour of this act as reasonable provisions have been made on it to bring it in line with the principles of the Empire.
Senator Hubert Ordan
__________________________
Senator of the Azure Sector
Foreign Minister of Anaxes
Captain-General of the Azure Interest Protection Squadron
Deputy Chairman of the Ethics Committee
Worshipful Master of the Most Loyal and Honourable Company of Blockadeers
Archtreasurer of the Vault of Pols Anaxes
Autocrat of Selgon
Owner of Azure Durasteel
Systems Admiral (Ret)
Order of the Canted Circle
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| Sate_Pestage | Date: Tuesday, 30 Oct 2012, 12:43 PM | Message # 30 |
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Lieutenant general
Group: Moderators
Messages: 639
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| The measure in its amended form passes unanimously.
Sate Pestage
Grand Vizier of the Empire
Assistant to Emperor Palpatine
Chair of the Imperial Senate
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