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The Capital Vessels Act
Sate_PestageDate: Wednesday, 03 Nov 2010, 4:55 PM | Message # 16
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The chair does not oppose this measure.

Sate Pestage
Grand Vizier of the Empire
Assistant to Emperor Palpatine
Chair of the Imperial Senate


Message edited by Sate_Pestage - Wednesday, 03 Nov 2010, 4:56 PM
 
Toben-DomonDate: Thursday, 04 Nov 2010, 4:25 AM | Message # 17
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All vessels, regardless of type, whether for war, peace or civilian use, are works of art. I cannot condone this measure. I voteagainst.

Toben Domon
Senator, Sluis Van
 
Bernard_OrielDate: Thursday, 04 Nov 2010, 5:31 AM | Message # 18
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Senator Domon... If I might suggest your argument is ridiculous.. Ships are regulated by laws as it is.. there are regulations controlling every aspect of their construction, and rightly so. Would you then advocate civilian vessels being allowed to have armourments equivalent to warships? Your argument makes no sense in context. Why does this damage the "artistic quality" of the vessel? Any more than the present Health and Safety Legislation or the rules governing warships within the Empire?

Or do you oppose any modification of starships?


Bernard Oriel
Senator for the Planet of Vjun
1st Earl Malreaux (Second Creation)
Vjun Delegation to the Imperial Senate
 
Toben-DomonDate: Thursday, 04 Nov 2010, 6:23 AM | Message # 19
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Did I state anything about arming civilian craft, Senator? I do not believe I did. To us on Sluis Van, building space-faring vessels is a work of art. I simply believe that to rip apart and change vessels designed with such beauty is a shame.

If you prefer a more pragmatic answer though, I believe that modifying the weapons on starships is pointless for home defense fleets. It is the equivalent of saying that planetary militas should be armed with no more than stun weapons on the off chance they rebel or fall into the hands of rebels. Modifying the hyperdrives,, replacing them with slower systems, has been the best option I have head so far.


Toben Domon
Senator, Sluis Van
 
Bernard_OrielDate: Thursday, 04 Nov 2010, 8:48 AM | Message # 20
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Maybe that would be the obvious choice, to a monstrous green skinned horror of no breeding who had crawled from some confederate loving slime pit on the rim.

However, to us more sentient beings, it is obvious that any planetary fleet consisting of aggressive ships threatens the security of us all.

I simply see that it might be seen by some as unseemly to deprive worlds of a few ships, for ceremonial and anti-piracy purposes, and thus propose this compromise, rather than pushing (as many others would) for more extreme legislation against the dangerous few who insist on maintaining aggressive fleets.


Bernard Oriel
Senator for the Planet of Vjun
1st Earl Malreaux (Second Creation)
Vjun Delegation to the Imperial Senate
 
Crin_StarDate: Thursday, 04 Nov 2010, 9:23 AM | Message # 21
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"Senator Oriel let us be clear on a few points.
Firstly and most importantly, These fleets are NOT aggressive. For the vast majority of history that has held true and as you seem to be so willing to go to the clone wars, let me say the problems which caused the war have been fixed. That was the point of reforming our government into the empire. And as many have already said these measures will slow response times and leave planets at a GREATER vulnerability.

As to the hyperdrive matter, yes a lower hyperdrive would lessen the chance of an attack but a much more effect deterent be would and IS the vast Imperial Navy which safeguards the peace and security of this great empire. And while the Imperial navy is vast it is not infinate and can not be everywhere at once and that is the place for the powerful planetary garrisons and defense ships to fill in the gaps."

 
Bernard_OrielDate: Thursday, 04 Nov 2010, 10:18 AM | Message # 22
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Senator Star,

May I ask, what is the purpose of a vessel containing dozens of armoured landing craft, ground based vehicles and a massive garrison of marine forces BUT for aggression! These have no use in anti piracy operations and no use in defensive operations. Equally, these massive turbolaser emplacements!? Few piratical groups have anything more to threaten us with than a corvette class vessel.. Even without giant heavy turbolasers these vessels are more than adequate to meet this threat.

How will these measures slow response times? A planetary fleet should not leave its own sovereign space, and should have sufficient vessels to hold such.. A planetary fleet is not allowed to pursue aggressive measures, or to leave its sovereign space without permission from the Sector Governor...

Yes worlds should be allowed to have a reasonable standard of defensive ships and installations, simply not aggressive capital ships of war. Consider, there are so many alternatives on the market, for good prices, which are not aggressive ships, and allow an excellent standard of defence without wasting taxpayers money maintaining huge behemoths which do not assure the common defence.

Consider, for the price of one, horribly aggressive and outdated Venator-class, which threatens your neighbours does not provide defensive force for its money. For the price of this "aggressive" ship... one could have perhaps between 8 and 10 Carrack-class Light Cruisers, Nebulon B-class Frigates or Modular Taskforce Cruisers... These 10 smaller vessels have vastly MORE firepower, and vastly increased defensive ability in every respect.. with smaller needs for crewing and so on and so forth.

These aggressive vessels are not a cost effective way to provide defence for a world, and in their unmodified state risk their owners as much as they risk others. Consider.. if you were looking to protect a world, putting your eggs in one basket in this respect is a huge and unwarranted risk, and waste of money. While it may be wholly appropriate for worlds which can afford to spend huge sums on defence (Kuat, Humbarine, Commenor etc) to purchase larger ships to patrol their wide holdings, it is horribly inappropriate for small worlds to attempt to do the same.

To invest a whole worlds fleet budget in a small number of outdated vessels, when they could have a much larger, much more modern force, for the same price.. is a travesty, and serves to weaken not only themselves, but the Empire itself, for unity is strength, and when a single link fails, the whole chain is hazarded.

So I must urge you, consider the wisest course of action, huge capital ships are not practical defensive vessels in most cases, with or without this additional weaponary. And I hope that this bill will provide large, rich worlds with the capacity to buy large numbers of these vessels, converted for defence, if they so choose, but will also help coerce smaller worlds with delusions of grandeur into having a fleet which is sensible and sustainable for the future of the Empire.

I would ask Senator Veritas this question directly, coming as he does from a relative backwater of small means.. does he propose to "invest" in these large aggressive capital ships? If so, shouldn't one who is charged with balancing the defence budget be a little wiser than to invest your planet's meagre wealth into aggressive capital ships when what it NEEDS is a wide ranging and capable anti-piracy force, not a small selection of outdated behemoths, that serve only to perhaps compensate for your worlds lack of any real military capability, and perhaps to satiate your worlds own grandiose, unimperial and downright unpatriotic fantasies of being a "Deralian Empire"?


Bernard Oriel
Senator for the Planet of Vjun
1st Earl Malreaux (Second Creation)
Vjun Delegation to the Imperial Senate
 
Ilanah_ThanatosDate: Thursday, 04 Nov 2010, 1:43 PM | Message # 23
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While I agree with most of these points, Senator Oriel....removing the hyperdrive? Is it really necessary? I only ask because what if a situation arises that a nearby planet or system needs assistance. I know that if a nearby planet was under seige for whatever reason and by whomever, Chandrila would be more than willing to send aid in the form of our defensive ships. For that reason, it does not make sense to remove the hyperdrive. Sometimes ships, whether defensive only or warships, need to get places fast in times of need.

Other than that, I would be more than happy to agree and vote in favor, but not until the subject of removing the hyperdrive is addressed further, as several of the senators here have also pointed out.


Ilanah R. Thanatos
Senator of Chandrila
 
Bernard_OrielDate: Thursday, 04 Nov 2010, 2:16 PM | Message # 24
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To answer your question Senator, removing the hyperdrive is not a requirement, it is just one of a wide selection of methods outlined in my legislation which will render a ship "defensive".

There is no reason why your world could not maintain a capable hyperspace-viable deterrent under this act.. This act will simply prevent you producing an invasion fleet or massive battleships to assault your neighbours.

I would also highlight that in the event of any siege I am sure the Imperial Navy would intervene with all due speed in defence of Imperial Citizens.


Bernard Oriel
Senator for the Planet of Vjun
1st Earl Malreaux (Second Creation)
Vjun Delegation to the Imperial Senate
 
Ilanah_ThanatosDate: Thursday, 04 Nov 2010, 2:20 PM | Message # 25
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...As long as the Imperial Navy is not otherwise engaged in other missions, Senator. There may be a case where a ship from a nearby planet can respond faster than the Imperial Navy.

Your reply satisfies my question in regards to the hyperdrive, Senator Oriel. I do appreciate the response, and as I indicated earlier, I vote in favor of your act.


Ilanah R. Thanatos
Senator of Chandrila
 
Toben-DomonDate: Thursday, 04 Nov 2010, 4:17 PM | Message # 26
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Senator Oriel, I do not fully understand human sarcasm, but if that was indeed an insult, I shall let it pass this once. If it was not... then the case is, how do you say? Water under the bridge.

Sluis Van sports a small fleet of defensive ships, eschewing the larger war vessels. I believe it it each planet's right to pick and choose. If there is a problem with, say the Venator or Acclamator vessels, why not simply scrap them rather than waste time and credits reselling and modifying?


Toben Domon
Senator, Sluis Van
 
Janar_CerraDate: Thursday, 04 Nov 2010, 4:39 PM | Message # 27
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Aeeq must respectfully vote against this motion.

Ja'nar Cerra
Queen of Garos IV
Acting Senator to the Republic, Garos IV
 
Bernard_OrielDate: Friday, 05 Nov 2010, 10:26 AM | Message # 28
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Senator Cerra, Could I ask on what basis you are in opposition?

The reason we do not scrap these vessels is because the Imperial Administration has made public its wish to see the surplus of vessels sold off, where possible. But we really do need to be sensible and see that we should not allow unmodified weapons of mass destruction to be sold, instead why not just marginally downgrade their weapons or hyperdrive, this way they cant threaten us or the Empire.


Bernard Oriel
Senator for the Planet of Vjun
1st Earl Malreaux (Second Creation)
Vjun Delegation to the Imperial Senate
 
Janar_CerraDate: Friday, 05 Nov 2010, 12:56 PM | Message # 29
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(That was Senator Chakrie btw....gwad...come on mister!)

I do believe other representatives have spoken quite well against this act. Aeeq is planet that is starting to become industrialized and a power. It has always been my King's dream to have a fleet that could actually protect our planet, where we would not have to beg others for help. It is for these reasons I vote against this matter.

Senator Chakrei
Aeeq


Ja'nar Cerra
Queen of Garos IV
Acting Senator to the Republic, Garos IV
 
Bernard_OrielDate: Friday, 05 Nov 2010, 1:10 PM | Message # 30
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Senator.. I am not sure if it has been pointed out to you, but this measure would allow you to have a defensive fleet, of considerable power, more than you could ever need to defend your world.. but it would simply disallow you from having a fleet which could attack other worlds in the Empire.

Surely your world does not want an aggressive fleet?

And if your world does not want an aggressive fleet, then this is the act for you, it will mean a safer galaxy for everyone.

Also, Senator Cambrist, please note I have added your amendment to my bill.


Bernard Oriel
Senator for the Planet of Vjun
1st Earl Malreaux (Second Creation)
Vjun Delegation to the Imperial Senate
 
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