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Vessel Classification Bill
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| Bernard_Oriel | Date: Tuesday, 04 Oct 2011, 0:52 AM | Message # 76 |
 Colonel general
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| I'd just like to state that the views expressed by Senators Ordan, Oswaldt and North are completely opposed to the greater good of the worlds of the Empire and that this is an act (by Senator Zarcaine's admission) which hurts the worlds of the Empire and causes them to suffer.
I restate my vote against this Act.
This is an act to punish the Outer Rim, this is an act to increase bureaucracy, this is an act to take power away from planets and sectors and bring it to Imperial Centre, this is an act which benefits only warmongers and the aggressive who seek bigger and more deadly weapons of destruction with which to threaten those who do not have the resources to resist them.
Bernard Oriel
Senator for the Planet of Vjun
1st Earl Malreaux (Second Creation)
Vjun Delegation to the Imperial Senate
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| LordZarcaine | Date: Tuesday, 04 Oct 2011, 8:37 AM | Message # 77 |
 Colonel
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| Senator Oriel, Senator Fitzgerald. It is commendable that you stand here fighting for the poorer worlds, which as I stated, this bill was not on purpose written to harm them. However, I have seen a fundamental flaw in your reasoning on worlds signing treaties and mutual protection pacts with each other. This way would bring peace, if only for a time, however it would ultimately lead to world. It would create a mine field of defense treaties, it would devolve into war constantly. If Planet A has treaties with Planets C, E, R, and T,and vise verse, and Planet B has treaties with Planets G, H, F, and J,and vise verse, it will eventually come to a point where Planet J accidentally insults Planet T, which in turn attacks planet J, whose allies in their treaties will turn and attack Planet T, whose own allies will turn and attack Planet J, until it devolves into all the planets in the above example attacking each other and breaking out into war which would only grow larger with each passing treaty that may or may not have been signed, pulling in more and more worlds into the fray. You propose that the worlds help defend each other, yet that will only lead to a mine field of treaties, a mine field in which one wrong step will set off a powder keg that will with out a doubt envelope into a full war.
Lord Zarcaine Kuriyoshi
Lord of Chandaar
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| LomenRyuun | Date: Tuesday, 04 Oct 2011, 8:57 AM | Message # 78 |
 Lieutenant general
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| Representative Zarcaine, a slight change to Section IV, Subsection B may aid your measure. Instead of having designs that 'must' be approved by the Defense Committee, instead, have the designs forwarded to the Defense Committee as a mandatory act so they can be brought up on all designs while allowing shipyards the freedom to produce.
Senator Fitzgerald, Druckenwell's shipwrights are hardly struggling. A number of shipyards subcontract through us and we are quite comfortable with that arrangement. As for an advantage over Monor II, such need not be worried about. Priest-Prince Agapos the Ninth and I have resolved our differences and signed a generous treaty to benefit both our worlds and protect one another. I foresee Druckenwell-produced vessels in Monor II space and under Monor II ownership very soon.Added (04 Oct 2011, 9:57 Am)
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If I might add as well, there seems little point in even troubling the Defense Council or Committee; if anything, the Imperial Bureau of Shipyards and Construction should be consulted.
Lomen Ryuun
Senator, Doldur Sector
Senator, Druckenwell
Representative, Monor II (10 BBY - 9 BBY)
Representative, Geridard
Representative, Boranall
Representative, Therenor Prime
Vice-chairman, Defense Committee (Temporarily suspended)
Controlling Shareholder - Druckenwell Arms Corporation
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| Tremaine_Fowlkes | Date: Tuesday, 04 Oct 2011, 2:44 PM | Message # 79 |
 Colonel general
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| While Senator Kuriyoshi's intentions on this bill may be well, Telos IV is not comfortable with this. This bill would give more power to large worlds and more restrictions to smaller worlds. If this happens to be passed, then Telos IV would have to suffer a downgrade of our own planetary defense. In turn, this would make us more vulnerable to an attack. I am certain several worlds feel this way. I must respectfully vote against the bill.
Tremaine Fowlkes
Senator of Telos IV
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| Senator_Ordan | Date: Tuesday, 04 Oct 2011, 4:28 PM | Message # 80 |
 Lieutenant general
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| Large worlds deserve their advantages Senator Fowlkes. Small worlds deserve to be put in their place and should know that place from the outset.
Senator Hubert Ordan
__________________________
Senator of the Azure Sector
Foreign Minister of Anaxes
Captain-General of the Azure Interest Protection Squadron
Deputy Chairman of the Ethics Committee
Worshipful Master of the Most Loyal and Honourable Company of Blockadeers
Archtreasurer of the Vault of Pols Anaxes
Autocrat of Selgon
Owner of Azure Durasteel
Systems Admiral (Ret)
Order of the Canted Circle
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| LordZarcaine | Date: Tuesday, 04 Oct 2011, 5:02 PM | Message # 81 |
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Colonel
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| Senator Fowlkes, please inform us all as to how this Bill would cause Telos IV to suffer a downgrade of planetary defense.
Lord Zarcaine Kuriyoshi
Lord of Chandaar
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| Senator_Ordan | Date: Tuesday, 04 Oct 2011, 5:07 PM | Message # 82 |
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Lieutenant general
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| I believe he means their "proportional weight" will be downgraded. Since the core worlds will begin to field vessels of a much larger tonnage his world's piffling CR-70s would simply be as nought to their might. Ergo his planetary defense is proportionately weaker and less useful on the Galactic Scene. Thus as the power of the large worlds grows, smaller world's fleets will become yet more inadequate and weak than it already is.
Makes perfect sense to me and I think its the right thing to do! Let the weaker worlds shuffle into military obscurity.
Senator Hubert Ordan
__________________________
Senator of the Azure Sector
Foreign Minister of Anaxes
Captain-General of the Azure Interest Protection Squadron
Deputy Chairman of the Ethics Committee
Worshipful Master of the Most Loyal and Honourable Company of Blockadeers
Archtreasurer of the Vault of Pols Anaxes
Autocrat of Selgon
Owner of Azure Durasteel
Systems Admiral (Ret)
Order of the Canted Circle
Message edited by Senator_Ordan - Tuesday, 04 Oct 2011, 5:08 PM |
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| Tremaine_Fowlkes | Date: Tuesday, 04 Oct 2011, 5:17 PM | Message # 83 |
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Colonel general
Group: Users
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| I would have said it in a nicer way, but yes Senator Ordan is correct. Your bill essentially cripples planetary defense of a world such as Telos IV. Worlds like Imperial Center or Anaxes can afford to cut some losses and make up for it. Most of the worlds in the Outer Rim cannot afford that, Telos IV is one of them. I must speak for my own world and many smaller worlds. This is very much like letting the rich get richer and letting the poor get poorer. I will not endorse any bill that would cripple my world's ability to defend ourselves.
Tremaine Fowlkes
Senator of Telos IV
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| LordZarcaine | Date: Tuesday, 04 Oct 2011, 11:44 PM | Message # 84 |
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Colonel
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| Senator Fowlkes, you are bringing up a concern that I addressed when Senator Vanden spoke of it. Yes, I will admit that this Bill does hurt smaller worlds, yet it was not written on purpose or in any manner as such to purposely hurt smaller worlds, as I've assured Senator Vanden, I will look into these concerns, and I will begin to draft a proper piece of legislation that will deal with those issues that not only you, yet also Senator Vanden have brought up. This Bill was written, contrary to Senator Oriel's claims, without any thought, malice or prejudice that is directly meant to punish the Outer Rim. If Senator Oriel took the time to look at the extent of the Empire, he would notice that the Cronese Mandate is also in the Outer Rim. As I've said before, this Bill was not written with any thought of purposely harming smaller worlds, or punishing the Outer Rim. You'll also note that this Bill would prevent the acquisition and use of the weapons that Senator Oriel has claimed this Bill would allow, although his continued fighting against this Bill has caused my own aides to wonder and voice their opinion to me that he may in fact be voting against the Bill simply because it would repeal his own red tape laced Capital Vessel Acts.
Gentlemen, we must look at what this Bill does, not just the fabrications that have been brought to mind by those that continue to shout against it, which I'm sure those same fabrications have caused many of the other Senators from voting on this Bill, as they may or may not find it difficult to bring themselves into this debate with out a proper understanding of what the Bill does.
This Bill was written to cut bureaucracy, not extend it as Senator Oriel has claimed. It prevents worlds from acquiring and using the deadliest of weapons that are known to us now, it provides for the safety of Medical and Refugee Vessels, as well as helping the citizens of the Empire understand what a Diplomatic Mission is. It takes the restrictions and regulations away from the consumers, the same regulation and restrictions put upon them by the Capital Vessels Acts, and places them in the hands of those that should be handling such things, not the Defense Committee, but the Shipyards and manufactures that create the Vessels, to ensure that only the safest product is given to their consumers, and that the vessels are placed in the correct hands. It informs the citizens of the Empire what vessels are illegal and legal to own in simple descriptions that are easy for anyone to understand, without the worry of having to wrap their brain around it, and prevent them from landing in the hot seat, merely because they didn't understand the wording. This Bill aids the citizens of the Empire, and helps ensure their defense, not take away from it.
Lord Zarcaine Kuriyoshi
Lord of Chandaar
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| LomenRyuun | Date: Wednesday, 05 Oct 2011, 6:27 AM | Message # 85 |
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Lieutenant general
Group: Users
Messages: 696
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| Representative Zarcaine, there is a large and gaping flaw in your legislature. The Imperial Bureau of Shipyards and Construction oversees designs and production, not the Defense Council, Defense Committee or any other, at least to the best of my knowledge. Perhaps you should change your wording.
Lomen Ryuun
Senator, Doldur Sector
Senator, Druckenwell
Representative, Monor II (10 BBY - 9 BBY)
Representative, Geridard
Representative, Boranall
Representative, Therenor Prime
Vice-chairman, Defense Committee (Temporarily suspended)
Controlling Shareholder - Druckenwell Arms Corporation
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| LordZarcaine | Date: Wednesday, 05 Oct 2011, 9:25 AM | Message # 86 |
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Colonel
Group: Users
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| Senator Ryuun, I assure you that it is currently being looked into, and changes will be forthcoming that will be suit and help strengthen the Bill. Thank you for your insight, comments, and suggestions to help the Bill remain strong. Proper editing in the areas of concern will be coming soon.
Lord Zarcaine Kuriyoshi
Lord of Chandaar
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| Bernard_Oriel | Date: Wednesday, 05 Oct 2011, 9:35 AM | Message # 87 |
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Colonel general
Group: Users
Messages: 803
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| Quote (LordZarcaine) This Bill was written, contrary to Senator Oriel's claims, without any thought
Says it all really.
Senator Zarcaine says the act was "not intended to increase bureaucracy... but it does.
Senator Zarcaine says the act was "not intended to hurt small worlds... but it does. (Although it does not hurt his precious mandate thanks to it essentially functioning as one world).
Senator Zarcaine admits this act will cause the spread of more dangerous weapons.
Senator Zarcaine says the act was "not intended to take power away from worlds, systems and sectors and places it in the hands of a far away committee on Imperial Centre" but surprise surprise... it does.
The tiny trickle of good this act would do is outweighed by the cascade of evil it will wreak upon the worlds of the Empire, its people etc.
Bernard Oriel
Senator for the Planet of Vjun
1st Earl Malreaux (Second Creation)
Vjun Delegation to the Imperial Senate
Message edited by Bernard_Oriel - Wednesday, 05 Oct 2011, 9:35 AM |
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| LordZarcaine | Date: Wednesday, 05 Oct 2011, 9:44 AM | Message # 88 |
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Colonel
Group: Users
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| Senator Oriel, I see your prejudice as well as your choosing what to quote is still the only way you can fight. If you chose to use the exact phrase, yet it would seem that you'd rather not, then you will see what I said in whole, and not out of the context you've so decided to use is. This Bill was written, contrary to Senator Oriel's claims, without any thought, malice or prejudice that is directly meant to punish the Outer Rim. Of course I guess one can not expect Senator Oriel to use the full length of a sentence when a chopped up version will serve him to sway the masses to a lie rather than allow them to see the truth.
This bill does not increase bureaucracy, it was not written specifically to harm small worlds, it prevents the spread of dangerous weapons, it does not take power away from worlds, systems and sectors to defend themselves. Senator Oriel, I grow tired of you attacking this Bill, I grow tired of you butchering sentences, paragraphs, lines and phrases so you can mislead the people just to get what you want. I have held this back since you've begun to fight against this Bill, yet all I see in you attacking this Bill is nothing less than your fear that this Bill will repeal and replace your own Capital Vessel Acts that cause more damage than they do any good.
Senator Ryuun, you will also see that your suggestions have been taken into consideration, and placed in the appropriate places in the Bill itself. While there is still some need for the Defense Committee to be kept apprised of what is going on, the full dealings in the terms of productions, manufacture, etc etc that you've spoke of have been relegated to the Imperial Bureau of Shipyards and Construction.
Lord Zarcaine Kuriyoshi
Lord of Chandaar
Message edited by LordZarcaine - Wednesday, 05 Oct 2011, 9:49 AM |
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| Bernard_Oriel | Date: Wednesday, 05 Oct 2011, 9:56 AM | Message # 89 |
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Colonel general
Group: Users
Messages: 803
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| Quote (LordZarcaine) This Bill was written, contrary to Senator Oriel's claims, without any thought
You claim it does not increase bureaucracy - It does, what is requiring approval on Imperial Centre of all designs called other than bureaucracy? This is an act to take away worlds rights to license themselves and the rights of Sectors to do the same, to take them away to bring them to Imperial Centre to a committee which is ill fitted to enforce this act.
It legalizes dangerous weapons designed to slaughter millions which at present are illegal and pose a real and present danger to small outer rim worlds - such as the Prow heavy turbolasers on your own Sector's (presently illegal) Munificent-class Star Frigate.
Quote (LordZarcaine) this Bill will... cause more damage than... good.
As Senator Fitzgerald said, the road to hell is paved with good intentions, and while you have stated it is not the "intention" of yourself to do things like increase bureaucracy, proliferate dangerous weapons and hurt smaller worlds, the substantive fact (as judged by the members effected) is that your act does all these things.
Bernard Oriel
Senator for the Planet of Vjun
1st Earl Malreaux (Second Creation)
Vjun Delegation to the Imperial Senate
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| LordZarcaine | Date: Wednesday, 05 Oct 2011, 10:00 AM | Message # 90 |
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Colonel
Group: Users
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| Yet again Senator Oriel shows that his only way to fight is to butcher phrases and sentences.
Lord Zarcaine Kuriyoshi
Lord of Chandaar
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