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Vessel Classification Bill
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| Toben-Domon | Date: Friday, 30 Sep 2011, 6:51 AM | Message # 31 |
 Major general
Group: Users
Messages: 347
Status: Offline
| I apologize, Representative Zarcaine, but Senator Ordan is too rabid a sentient to be allowed to have free reign of such vessel-building ability. I must vote against this measure for that reason, as well as for the fact that it would slow the process for shipwrights across the galaxy.
Toben Domon
Senator, Sluis Van
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| Senator_Ordan | Date: Friday, 30 Sep 2011, 8:43 AM | Message # 32 |
 Lieutenant general
Group: Users
Messages: 633
Status: Offline
| Senator Ordan, not representative, Alien.
We don't even want your Alien vote in favour anyway. It would only taint the Act.
Vote in favour! Vote for survival of the fittest! Let the weaker worlds quake before our might.
Senator Hubert Ordan
__________________________
Senator of the Azure Sector
Foreign Minister of Anaxes
Captain-General of the Azure Interest Protection Squadron
Deputy Chairman of the Ethics Committee
Worshipful Master of the Most Loyal and Honourable Company of Blockadeers
Archtreasurer of the Vault of Pols Anaxes
Autocrat of Selgon
Owner of Azure Durasteel
Systems Admiral (Ret)
Order of the Canted Circle
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| Eli_Fitzgerald | Date: Friday, 30 Sep 2011, 1:27 PM | Message # 33 |
 Major general
Group: Users
Messages: 355
Status: Offline
| I see no meaningful differences from Senator Oriel's bill. Yes, this bill has more distinctions about diplomatic and refugee ships and so on, but the approach is fundamentally the same as Senator Oriel's bill—that is, top-down regulations on what the people can or can't do or, in this case, what ships they can or can't have. I vote against this as I did when Senator Oriel proposed it, and I think that Senator Ordan's lust for the bill demonstrates the problem; that is, it's a bill that takes away the people's rights of self-defense and self-determination and gives them to the Empire, and does so in a way that's disadvantageous to smaller worlds like Dantooine, Anobis, and Onderon.
There are some good ideas in the bill and good intentions too, and while I suppose it does improve on Senator Oriel's bill in some superficial ways, it's still the wrong approach. I simply don't accept that the Senate understands a planet's defense needs better than the planet and its people do, let alone tens of thousands of planets all with different needs but, under this bill, all subject to the same rules and regulations. We don't need any more of these bills, we need self-regulation—voluntary treaties to regulate the possession of capital ships and potentially help to defend smaller worlds, too. I see no possible alternative that I can support, or that anyone else should either.
Added (30 Sep 2011, 2:27 PM)
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Moreover, it troubles me that the author of the bill hasn't repudiated any of the things that Senator Ordan has said about it or the insults he's made to entire species and classes of people. I'm disappointed that Senator Zarcaine hasn't seemed to agree that some votes aren't worth having.
Eli Fitzgerald
Senator of Ralltiir (10 BBY—Present)
"I was elected to do some flamethrowing in the Senate. To a light a fire under those Senators and make it hot for them."
Message edited by Eli_Fitzgerald - Friday, 30 Sep 2011, 1:30 PM |
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| LordZarcaine | Date: Friday, 30 Sep 2011, 11:51 PM | Message # 34 |
 Colonel
Group: Users
Messages: 192
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| Gentlemen, please excuse my lateness in responding to your questions and inquiries to this Bill. It has recently come to my attention that Mandate Space has been under attack by what can only be called "Rebel" Elements seeking to destabilize the region, as well as try to cause interstellar conflicts due to the fact that the first attack was meant to imply the Cronese Mandate in the destruction of a Vjun station that was at the time being constructed. The second attack was meant to imply that Deralia had attack, yet it was made quickly clear by those ships that did attack, that they were not of Deralia.
Now then, allow me to settle these questions and concerns that have been put out there.
Senator Ray, I believe that all worlds are required to keep the Empire strong, even the small ones such as Dantooine. However, all worlds must do their part in this Empire. I'm sure that we would be able to come up with something that would allow Dantooine to exploit its many resources and untapped potentials that it has. In this way, we can bring the Empire's many worlds together and prove that the Empire is strong, from their largest worlds, to their smallest.
Senator Oriel, if you claim that Vjun is such a controlled area, then you should have no problem with the small restrictions put on mines that are meant to keep the people safe from accidents that may occure. Also, the listing of safe routes for civilian vessels would not be to invite pirates, as such information could be broadcasted to the vessel when it arrives.
As for your concern of member planets amassing fleets to unleash upon one another, while it is a potention problem, I believe that each world, and their rulers, are smart enough to realize that such an action would bring about not only the Imperial Navy upon them, yet other members worlds that would in turn respond to their attack.
Senator Domon, while your vote would be very much appreciative, I can understand your hesitation due to Senator Ordan's over enthusiasim for this Bill. As such, I also see that you've also claimed that this Bill would slow the process for shipwrights, across the galaxy. This Bill however does not slow the process, as much as regulate it to prevent an influx of warships being spread across the galaxy and ending up in the hands of criminals, pirates and rebels. The regulations put in place are meant to ensure that only through the proper channels, may a person purchase a warship.
Now, as for the concerns made by Senator Fitzgerald. As you've claimed that this bill would take away the people's rights of self-defense and self-determination, I must say that, that is a wrong view point. Currently as I mentioned earlier, the Cronese Mandate has come under attack, it is the view of Robeir XXII, ruler of the House of Cron, that the this bill would make it much easier to quickly amass the vessels that we need to ensure the safety of our people, and to respond to the many attacks that have seemed to come out of the wood works. This bill would infact encourage the proper acquisition of Vessels for the means of self-defense, rather than bog it down in regulations such as the Capital Vessel Act would require.
I do though have a question for Senator Fitzgerald, that is due to your stating that we need self-regulation, and voluntary treaties between worlds. I ask this of you, would Pro-Imperial worlds regulate themselves to have lesser fleets, than a peaceful world such as Ralltiir. Do you believe that all worlds would self-regulate themselves in such a peaceful manner as to help each other with out the small encouragement from a Bill.
Lord Zarcaine Kuriyoshi
Lord of Chandaar
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| Artemis_Vanden | Date: Saturday, 01 Oct 2011, 0:48 AM | Message # 35 |
 Major general
Group: Users
Messages: 302
Status: Offline
| Senator Zarcaine, the questions you pose to the Senator from Ralltiir are good questions indeed, and expose the weakness of the Senator's argument; namely, does anyone expect from Senator Ordan's words today that his planet, Anaxes, will "self-regulate" its fleet? The answer is obviously no, and with all due respect I think it demonstrates that "self-regulation" is a fantasy. What we really need are the sort of regulations that Senator Zarcaine has proposed here, which require the manufacturers of warships to share more of the regulatory burden with the consumer. I support this, and strongly support the bill's incentive in Section 8 to decommission warships.
Some, perhaps many, will say these regulations are "too onerous." I feel there's no such thing as "too onerous," and surely if Senator Ordan is in support of the bill it's not onerous enough for me. The goal of the Senate should be the across-the-board elimination of warships in this galaxy—a long term goal, admittedly, but a worthy goal that this generation can begin to work toward. It seems to me this bill is a step in the right direction and I have little doubt that Naboo will support it upon consultation with my Queen and people.
However, Naboo would appreciate some assurance that Senator Ordan's characterization of the bill in terms of its supposed victimization of poorer worlds is not correct or, if it is correct, is remedied however and as fast as possible.
Artemis Vanden
Representative of the Naboo
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| Bernard_Oriel | Date: Saturday, 01 Oct 2011, 5:01 AM | Message # 36 |
 Colonel general
Group: Users
Messages: 803
Status: Offline
| I'm going to be honest here, the arguments made by Senator Vanden do not convince me if I am honest. This act is simply poorly drafted, it needs to be scrutinized by the Defense Committee and discussed by defense experts. The Categories listed simply do not work, so many vessels cross the "borders" of the different classification categories and so I am afraid the bill would be unenforceable due to its complexity.
I would like to remind Senator Vanden that the regulatory burden is presently already shared between shipyards and planets. I must say Senator Vanden that I am particularly shocked that you have expressed support for this act which arguably proliferates Capital Ships by lifting all restrictions on Capital Vessels for planets and leaves the smaller ones unable to compete in this economy of scale. You are also seeming to express support in the direction of Arming corporations? Surely Corporations with Capital Vessels are what devastated your planet in the past, please consider small worlds like yours or mine - we cannot build suitable defenses to keep away Corporate or Planetary Armadas that might come to devastate us.
I'd like to remind Senator Vanden of his words on the Restriction of Aggressive Military Forces Act "Because of "pirates" or "Separatists" or "insurgents," the Empire produces more powerful warships, as it must. As these are put into use, the last line of warships is given to planets so they can defend themselves from "pirates" or "Separatists" or "insurgents," as they must. Inevitably, these end up in the hands of "pirates" and "Separatists" and "insurgents," and so the Empire produces more powerful warships, as it must. On it goes, Senators, and as long as it does we are all participants in it. Not only Naboo or Vjun, but Volus too. This chain must be broken somewhere, and it might as well be here. I vote in favor, as I will vote in favor of any measure that prepares us for peace, not war."
Is this a measure that prepares us for peace? Is proliferation of Capital Vessels peace?
And your words on the first Capital Vessels Act "Since the Clone Wars, the galaxy has become inundated with weapons of war. When you prepare for war, Senators, there will be war. The Empire has promised us peace and, thus, we should prepare for peace. I would like to see the galaxy return to where it was before the Clone Wars, in a time when there were few, if any, standing fleets. Some will call me naive, I am sure. They will say that reducing fleets will make us vulnerable—that indeed, fleets are "necessary." But the "necessity" of fleets is self-perpetuating, Senators. It is because warships exist that warships are considered "necessary." The only way to end this tragic tautology is to put an end to warships. It must begin somewhere, and I hope it is here."
I honestly would like to support the bill - but until I see this bill discussed by the Defense Council so it can be properly scrutinized and rewritten so it stops the proliferation of dangerous ships who's only purpose is to bring death and suffering to the worlds of the Empire. Until that time, I vote Against. I vote against rearmourment, I vote this way because I do not want to see the Arms Race Senator Vanden mentions continue. Vjun simply can't afford to compete in such a race.
Bernard Oriel
Senator for the Planet of Vjun
1st Earl Malreaux (Second Creation)
Vjun Delegation to the Imperial Senate
Message edited by Bernard_Oriel - Saturday, 01 Oct 2011, 5:03 AM |
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| Senator_Ordan | Date: Saturday, 01 Oct 2011, 5:08 AM | Message # 37 |
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Lieutenant general
Group: Users
Messages: 633
Status: Offline
| Its not our fault Vjun can't keep up in the Arms Race. I believe Senator Oriel should stop being so verbose and just accept that smaller worlds simply cannot compete with Larger ones, instead of trying to perhaps you should seek to align yourself with them for your own protection. This Act will allow Anaxes to build bigger and better vessels, stronger vessels with greater aggressive capacity, it will allow us to be what we want to be, strong proud members of the Empire - that is what the core has a right to be. Strong and powerful. Too long as the squaking minority of rimward delegations dictated policy.
As I have said, this Act is for the survival of the fittest, for evolutionary selection in planetary combat.
Senator Hubert Ordan
__________________________
Senator of the Azure Sector
Foreign Minister of Anaxes
Captain-General of the Azure Interest Protection Squadron
Deputy Chairman of the Ethics Committee
Worshipful Master of the Most Loyal and Honourable Company of Blockadeers
Archtreasurer of the Vault of Pols Anaxes
Autocrat of Selgon
Owner of Azure Durasteel
Systems Admiral (Ret)
Order of the Canted Circle
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| Johannes_Oswaldt | Date: Saturday, 01 Oct 2011, 7:15 AM | Message # 38 |
 Major general
Group: Users
Messages: 250
Status: Offline
| Senators there are three things I believe in strongly. 1.) "Near human" aliens are a devolved form of humans and are inferior to humans, and aliens that aren't "near human" are even more so. 2.) There's nothing quite so pleasurable as frantic and unwilling intercourse. And 3.) Eriadu has the finest and grandest fleet of any world on the Outer Rim and its entitled to complete and total discretion on how big its fleet is and how its used against the many good-for-nothing worlds of the Outer Rim. Thats why I'm supportive of this bill. It gives credit where credit is due.. To people like Hubert and me whose planets deserve the largest and finest fleets and are entitled to use them as we damn well please. We have no more obligation to help the "lesser worlds" or "nothing worlds" or let's be honest, the "crappy worlds" than we do to the homeless man on the street or the orphan in the foundry or the alien in the ghetto. I remind the Senate theres such a thing as boot straps and if these insignificant planets want to make something of themselves maybe they should start pulling instead of whining about "inequality" or "injustice," humbug. Senator Zarcaine is exactly right about this. Shut up or put up, Dantooine. And you too Anobis or Abregado San.
Johannes Oswaldt
Senator and Governor of Eriadu
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| LordZarcaine | Date: Saturday, 01 Oct 2011, 8:58 AM | Message # 39 |
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Colonel
Group: Users
Messages: 192
Status: Offline
| Senator Vanden, I can understand your concern, and allow me to put those to rest. This Bill was not written, nor was there any ill intent or intent to support victimization of poorer worlds, nor was it written to victimize those worlds.
Lord Zarcaine Kuriyoshi
Lord of Chandaar
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| Senator_Ordan | Date: Saturday, 01 Oct 2011, 8:59 AM | Message # 40 |
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Lieutenant general
Group: Users
Messages: 633
Status: Offline
| But as a favourable side effect, it does make the strong stronger.
Senator Hubert Ordan
__________________________
Senator of the Azure Sector
Foreign Minister of Anaxes
Captain-General of the Azure Interest Protection Squadron
Deputy Chairman of the Ethics Committee
Worshipful Master of the Most Loyal and Honourable Company of Blockadeers
Archtreasurer of the Vault of Pols Anaxes
Autocrat of Selgon
Owner of Azure Durasteel
Systems Admiral (Ret)
Order of the Canted Circle
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| Artemis_Vanden | Date: Saturday, 01 Oct 2011, 9:13 AM | Message # 41 |
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Major general
Group: Users
Messages: 302
Status: Offline
| Senator Oriel, the quotes you've cited are consistent with what I've said today, but I do concede that Senator Ordan's lust for this bill, and now Senator Oswaldt's support of it too, is certainly cause for hesitation. You'll also note that I asked Senator Zarcaine to clarify whether the bill victimizes poorer worlds as Ordan and Oswaldt giddily imply. Senator Zarcaine, I appreciate your assurance that the bill isn't intended to do this, but I'm reminded of Senator Fitzgerald's and Senator Oriel's cautions about "good intentions." Surely what's relevant is whether the bill does victimize poorer worlds, not whether it's intended to. If it does, I would agree with Senator Ray that this should be remedied, though I'm not sure how exactly to do so. Also, is Senator Oriel correct that the bill contains no limits on the number of ships that planets can possess? I've read the bill in more detail and it appears to me he may indeed be right.
Artemis Vanden
Representative of the Naboo
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| LordZarcaine | Date: Saturday, 01 Oct 2011, 9:28 AM | Message # 42 |
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Colonel
Group: Users
Messages: 192
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| Senator Vanden, as I've said, this bill was not meant to victimize poorer worlds, it would seem though that it has become a side effect of such. However, I believe that it can be corrected in a proper Bill, as this Bill would not be the place for such legislation. I promise you Senator Vanden, that once the debate with this bill is finished, I will begin work on such a bill that would address the concerns that many have spoke about "Poorer" Worlds in a proper piece of legislation.
As for the concern on the limit of ships, weather or not this bill does or does not set a limit on ships, or if another bill does the same, it wont matter. There will still be worlds that will manage to find a way to get more ships in their orbit, just as criminals will find a way to take hold of ships. The limiting of ships will always be a touchy subject, just as the implimenting of such a bill to limit ships would be as well.
Lord Zarcaine Kuriyoshi
Lord of Chandaar
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| Senator_Ordan | Date: Saturday, 01 Oct 2011, 9:35 AM | Message # 43 |
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Lieutenant general
Group: Users
Messages: 633
Status: Offline
| I agree with Senator Zarcaine. There should be no limits on ships. To have limits is artificial, un-evolutionary. How are worlds to compete if the playing field is slanted in favour of the poor? Why work hard to have a great military tradition if things would be "equal" anyway. May I say that I am glad Senator Zarcaine has been honest, there is no need to be modest Senator Zarcaine, this bill helps the strong remain so and gives the weak a reason to work to become strong. You have proposed a bill which encourages the best worlds to survive, the weak to die off (as is regrettable but necessary for the greater good).
Senator Hubert Ordan
__________________________
Senator of the Azure Sector
Foreign Minister of Anaxes
Captain-General of the Azure Interest Protection Squadron
Deputy Chairman of the Ethics Committee
Worshipful Master of the Most Loyal and Honourable Company of Blockadeers
Archtreasurer of the Vault of Pols Anaxes
Autocrat of Selgon
Owner of Azure Durasteel
Systems Admiral (Ret)
Order of the Canted Circle
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| Johannes_Oswaldt | Date: Saturday, 01 Oct 2011, 9:39 AM | Message # 44 |
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Major general
Group: Users
Messages: 250
Status: Offline
| Hear hear.
Johannes Oswaldt
Senator and Governor of Eriadu
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| Slai-Fon | Date: Saturday, 01 Oct 2011, 9:54 AM | Message # 45 |
 Colonel
Group: Users
Messages: 160
Status: Offline
| Hard work does pay off indeed...
I'm interested, senators, when is the last time any of you did any actual work? I don't mean sit around here on imperial center, spitting out your two cent's about this and that. I mean the kind of work that's good old fashion decent, honest work? After my time in the Republic navy, I went back home to Anobis, and was granted some land for being a war hero. On that land, I worked day in and day out until my hand's damn near broke, I almost went broke a couple of times, but never once doubted my self in the work I was doing. Now I am the proud owner of the largest ranch on Anobis, and co-owner of my eldest son's mining trade company. Anobis is a hard working planet, if not one of the hardest working planet's around.
For now, I abstain from voting.
Also, I understand the survival of the fittest. It was do or die for several years while I served my time in the navy.
Slai-Fon Youngblood, Senator of Anobis, and the Bright Jewel sector
Chairman of ISEC (Imperial Senate Ethic's Committee.)
Chairman & CEO of K/Y deep.
Message edited by Slai-Fon - Saturday, 01 Oct 2011, 9:57 AM |
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